PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

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chuck731

Banned Idiot
E-2 was never part if the discussion because liaoning would never hold such aircraft anyway.
If bringing in E-2 is meant to demonstrate how inferior rotary winged AEW are, I have no problem. But using that to argue that fixed wing fighters can somehow supplement a helicopter based AEW doesn't make sense, because the whole point of AEW(&C) is wide area surveillance and control of multiple aircraft or other assets which a twin seater J-15 simply won't be able to do as well as a Z-8AEW because it lacks a 360 radar and it lacks the more powerful processing capability that the helicopters own crew offers.

Would j-15 perform CAP with active radars? Yes. Will it be able to datalink with other assets to some degree and share information? Yes. Does it have the ability to disseminate the data among a wide variety of assets and control multiple other aircraft? Doubtful. There is a further argument that Liaoning's limited fighter wing should be used for fighter tasks rather than struggling with AEW which Z-8AEW or ka-31 is better equipped for. And again E-2 doesn't figure into this because even though fixed wing AEW is better than rotary, assigning fighters with no modification to act as AEW doesn't compensate for any of the disadvantages rotary AEW has.

Further doubts regarding Ka-31 and Z-8AEW and their human crew capacity can be somewhat put to rest by comparing them with other similar systems like the UKs sea king AEW and the French horizon battlefield helicopter.
But even pretending rotary wing aircraft have a very small crew (I believe e-2 only has three consoles or somehong, how many can you fit in a Z-8?), J-15s still lack te radar of dedicated AEW choppers which are both more powerful, and can reliably survey 360 degrees without resorting to haphazard maneuvers to turn their nose everywhere like j-15 or any other fighter

My main point is that J-15 can be used in an AEW role for a CVBG, but the capability it provides over Z-8AEW or Ka-31 is doubtful, and considering the relatively small airwing of fighters on liaoning in the first place, would it really be wise assigning J-15s on an errant orbit around your fleet to have their radar cover all 360. (Not very efficient and won't have by the moment coverage either), meaning you are drawing fighters away from CAP or strike sorties?


Also, just how inferior are rotary wing AEW to fixed wing in terms of range and endurance? No doubt they are inferior in terms of altitude and speed, but it would be interesting to see what the differential is in the other two.
Also the processing and crew on Z-8AEW compared to E-2 would be interesting to note too.


Let's do a thought experiment use the following basic assumptions:

E-2 Endurance: 6-8 hours, cruising speed: 250 Knots, radar range: 250NM
Ka-31 endurance: 3 hours, cruising speed: 110 knots, radar range: 200NM
J-15 endurance: 5 hours, cruising speed: 450 knots, radar range 150NM.

If a E-2 take one hour each to fly to and back from patrol station, then it can establish a patrol station 250 NM from the carrier along the threat axis, providing AEW coverage out to 500NM, and remain on station for 4 hours at least.

If a Ka-31 take one hour each to fly to and back from patrol station, then it can establish a patrol station only 110 NM from the carrier along the threat axis, providing AEW coverage out to only 310 NM, and remain on station for only 1 hour.

2 E-2, 1 on station, 1 in transit or refueling, can sustain this single axis coverage for as long as neither aircraft breaks down. 3 E-2s, 2 on station, 1 in transit or refueling, can sustain this kind of coverage along 2 different threat axis, with coverage out to 500NM on each axis. A US carrier has 4 E-2, and can reasonably expect to maintain this dual axis coverage for some time due to redundancy.

It takes 3 Ka-31, 1 on station, 1 in transit, and 1 refueling, just to sustain continuous 24 hour coverage on only 1 threat axis, with maximum coverage of only 310 NM. A chinese carrier needs 4 Ka-31 to cover just one threat axis with any redundancy, and would need 7-8 Ka-31 to mimic the dual axis coverage afforded by the AEW assets on one US carrier, then only provide a coverage range ~60% of that procided by the E-2.

Now Let's say the Chinese carrier has 4 two seat J-15. A J-15 can cruise out to near the maximum coverage range of Ka-31 in under 45 minutes, extend the radar coverage out to 470 NM, and loiter there for 3 hours. 2 J-15s, 1 on station, 1 in transit or refueling, can sustain this coverage along one exist, 4 J-15 can in fact provide this coverage along 2 different axis, albeit without reserve. Admittedly the coverage provided by the J-15 isn't likely to be of the same quality as that provided by a real AEW radar set on a real AEW asset, but it is something, possibly the majority, at least along the direction of the nose of the J-15, and maybe 45 degrees to either side, which is not to be dismissed.

So I hope you cna see how J-15 can be used to partially bridge the gap between AEW coverage available to majority of the world's carriers, and that which can be provided by the Ka-31s.
 
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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
E-2 are always flying when flight operations are conducted. The first aircraft launched and the last recovered. U sally one is on station.. sometimes two. Hawkeyes are the most important aircraft aboard a carrier. Period.

E-2C are being replaced slowly by E-2Ds

E-2C Hawkeye

General Characteristics
Primary Function: Airborne Command & Control, Battle Space Management.
Contractor: Northrop Grumman Aerospace Corp.
Date Deployed: January 1964.
Unit Cost: $80 million.
Propulsion: Two Allison T-56-A427 turboprop engines; (5,100 shaft horsepower each).
Length: 57 feet 6 inches (17.5 meters).
Height: 18 feet 3 inches (5.6 meters).
Wingspan: 80 feet 7 inches (28 meters).
Weight: Max. gross, take-off: 53,000 lbs (23,850 kg) 40,200 lbs basic (18,090 kg).
Airspeed: 300+ knots (345 miles, 552 km. per hour).
Ceiling: 30,000 feet (9,100 meters).
Crew: Five.

E-2D Advanced Hawkeye

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Specifications

Overall Length: 57 ft. 8.75 in
Wing Area: 80 ft. 7 in
Weight (Empty): 40,484 lbs
Internal Fuel:
Speed: 300+ kts
Ceiling: 37,000 ft.
Range:
Power Plant: Two Rolls-Royce T56-A-427 Turboprop engines (5100 shp each)
Sensors: Fully integrated open architecture system;
Crew: five; two pilots, three mission systems operators with the option for the co-pilot to act as fourth mission systems operator.
Prime Contractor: Northrop Grumman

Program Status

ACAT: ID
Development Phase: System Development and Demonstration (SDD) began FY02
First Flights: Conventional Takeoff and Landing (CTOL) – FY07
Production Phase: Pilot Production began July 9, 2007
Projected Inventory: 73 aircraft through 2022.
Projected Initial Operational Capabilities (IOC) dates: First quarter 2012 Initial Operational Test & Evaluation followed by full-rate production in 2013 and Fleet Integration in fiscal year 2015.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Let's do a thought experiment use the following basic assumptions:

E-2 Endurance: 6-8 hours, cruising speed: 250 Knots, radar range: 250NM
Ka-31 endurance: 3 hours, cruising speed: 110 knots, radar range: 200NM
J-15 endurance: 5 hours, cruising speed: 450 knots, radar range 150NM.

If a E-2 take one hour each to fly to and back from patrol station, then it can establish a patrol station 250 NM from the carrier along the threat axis, providing AEW coverage out to 500NM, and remain on station for 4 hours at least.

If a Ka-31 take one hour each to fly to and back from patrol station, then it can establish a patrol station only 110 NM from the carrier along the threat axis, providing AEW coverage out to only 310 NM, and remain on station for only 1 hour.

2 E-2, 1 on station, 1 in transit or refueling, can sustain this single axis coverage for as long as neither aircraft breaks down. 3 E-2s, 2 on station, 1 in transit or refueling, can sustain this kind of coverage along 2 different threat axis, with coverage out to 500NM on each axis. A US carrier has 4 E-2, and can reasonably expect to maintain this dual axis coverage for some time due to redundancy.

It takes 3 Ka-31, 1 on station, 1 in transit, and 1 refueling, just to sustain continuous 24 hour coverage on only 1 threat axis, with maximum coverage of only 310 NM. A chinese carrier needs 4 Ka-31 to cover just one threat axis with any redundancy, and would need 7-8 Ka-31 to mimic the dual axis coverage afforded by the AEW assets on one US carrier, then only provide a coverage range ~60% of that procided by the E-2.

Now Let's say the Chinese carrier has 4 two seat J-15. A J-15 can cruise out to near the maximum coverage range of Ka-31 in under 45 minutes, extend the radar coverage out to 470 NM, and loiter there for 3 hours. 2 J-15s, 1 on station, 1 in transit or refueling, can sustain this coverage along one exist, 4 J-15 can in fact provide this coverage along 2 different axis, albeit without reserve. Admittedly the coverage provided by the J-15 isn't likely to be of the same quality as that provided by a real AEW radar set on a real AEW asset, but it is something, possibly the majority, at least along the direction of the nose of the J-15, and maybe 45 degrees to either side, which is not to be dismissed.

You make a convincing and well thought out case especially in regards to endurance but I have a few caveats I wnt to add:

First, there is a difference capability between what an E-2 can provide and what a rotary wing AEW can provide but that doesn't mean liaoning or any other STOBAR carrier necessarily needs to sacrifice other capabilities to meet a USN CVBGs AEW coverage.
Also, a carrier's airwing is somewhat limited and sending four of them (out of however many) to fly "AEW" may strain their capabilities -- which leads me to the fact that what you're describing for J-15 sounds a lot like CAP anyway.

You've convinced me that J-15s do have a range/endurance advantage over Z-8AEW, but it still faces massive disadvantage in terms of an overall surveillance of the battlegroup's surroundings with its nose mounted radar (and being smaller, etc), and also in terms of organic processing of the air picture and controlling other aircraft or assets -- which, back to the original point, is why I don't think the use of J-15s as AEW like Iran did as they used their F-14s as mini AWACS is optimal. Despite all of Z-8AEW's limitations, it can probably fit a few more control stations than a J-15S


So I hope you cna see how J-15 can be used to partially bridge the gap between AEW coverage available to majority of the world's carriers, and that which can be provided by the Ka-31s.

Heh well considering most of the world's carriers = CATOBAR CVNs, the argument does hold some water.

I concede that J-15s can assist in aerial patrol and surveillance and add to the sensor picture through datalinking (and possibly their normal CAP routines anyway), but I believe liaoning's main AEW node will still be the rotary AEW(&C) craft.
The original statement was comparing J-15S to the F-14 AEW(&C) role in Iran, and I think we both agree that both aircraft would have inferior aircraft controlling capability compared to a dedicated aircraft with multiple control stations for personnel (and worse 360 surveillance). Datalinking with ships does offer a situation where the control capability of an AEW asset may be less relevant, but the fact that AEW&C asssets still emphasize organic control capability in modern air operations says airborne control is still an invaluable asset.
 
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kwaigonegin

Colonel
You make a convincing and well thought out case especially in regards to endurance but I have a few caveats I wnt to add:

First, there is a difference capability between what an E-2 can provide and what a rotary wing AEW can provide but that doesn't mean liaoning or any other STOBAR carrier necessarily needs to sacrifice other capabilities to meet a USN CVBGs AEW coverage.
Also, a carrier's airwing is somewhat limited and sending four of them (out of however many) to fly "AEW" may strain their capabilities -- which leads me to the fact that what you're describing for J-15 sounds a lot like CAP anyway.

You've convinced me that J-15s do have a range/endurance advantage over Z-8AEW, but it still faces massive disadvantage in terms of an overall surveillance of the battlegroup's surroundings with its nose mounted radar (and being smaller, etc), and also in terms of organic processing of the air picture and controlling other aircraft or assets -- which, back to the original point, is why I don't think the use of J-15s as AEW like Iran did as they used their F-14s as mini AWACS is optimal. Despite all of Z-8AEW's limitations, it can probably fit a few more control stations than a J-15S




Heh well considering most of the world's carriers = CATOBAR CVNs, the argument does hold some water.

I concede that J-15s can assist in aerial patrol and surveillance and add to the sensor picture through datalinking (and possibly their normal CAP routines anyway), but I believe liaoning's main AEW node will still be the rotary AEW(&C) craft.
The original statement was comparing J-15S to the F-14 AEW(&C) role in Iran, and I think we both agree that both aircraft would have inferior aircraft controlling capability compared to a dedicated aircraft with multiple control stations for personnel (and worse 360 surveillance). Datalinking with ships does offer a situation where the control capability of an AEW asset may be less relevant, but the fact that AEW&C asssets still emphasize organic control capability in modern air operations says airborne control is still an invaluable asset.

Don't forget the workload as well... with the amount of data coming in, the RIO in the J-15S can only do so much unlike a dedicated group of folks inside a true AEW bird like an E2 or even the Z8 AEW.
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
J-15 will not raise the warning and control service in the area it covers to the level offered by dedicated aew assets, but it can offer significant degree of AEW service and some basic control service at ranges for which both kinds services would otherwise be totally lacking if liaoning remains dependent purely on helicopters.

I think even a spotty extension of AEW service to 460 nm along 2 threat axis would be of huge survival advantage to a carrier that otherwise would have decent coverage out to only 310 Nm along a single threat axis.

It is true that single seat j-15 flying combat patrol at 310 miles from liaoning would probably provide similar radar coverage as twin seat j-15s. But a twin seat j-15 could house an battle management officer in the RIO seat dedicated to controlling the battle space beyond 310 miles from the carrier. This a single seat j-15 might find hard to do.
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
OT

Watch these two videos and respect any blue water sailor of any navy, or merchant marine, who risks all in such weather.

Here's the USS Kitty Hawk in rough seas. Waves breaking over the bow like that have to be near 80 ft.


[video=youtube;WnyFjCJPwtk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnyFjCJPwtk[/video]

...and if you are wondering, here's how a much smaller frigate fairs in such seas.


[video=youtube;IoNC52xF4RY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoNC52xF4RY[/video]

Respect those sailors!

/OT
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
OT

Watch these two videos and respect any blue water sailor of any navy, or merchant marine, who risks all in such weather.

Here's the USS Kitty Hawk in rough seas. Waves breaking over the bow like that have to be near 80 ft.


[video=youtube;WnyFjCJPwtk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnyFjCJPwtk[/video]
/OT

Look at that one plane tied up all by itself on the foredeck in the face of mountainous waves breaking over the bow. Did its pilot get caught in bed with the Air Boss's wife or something?
 
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kwaigonegin

Colonel
OT

Watch these two videos and respect any blue water sailor of any navy, or merchant marine, who risks all in such weather.

Here's the USS Kitty Hawk in rough seas. Waves breaking over the bow like that have to be near 80 ft.


[video=youtube;WnyFjCJPwtk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnyFjCJPwtk[/video]

...and if you are wondering, here's how a much smaller frigate fairs in such seas.


[video=youtube;IoNC52xF4RY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoNC52xF4RY[/video]

Respect those sailors!

/OT

The ocean is no joke. As big as a CVN is, it is still but a tiny dot in the vast ocean. If you've never seen a 50 ft swell before it makes you wet your pants and cry mommy. Who I respect are the seafarers of yesteryears before satnav and GPS etc... crossing the oceans in their dreadnaughts and wooden ships! Those guys have big brass ones for sure.

I wouldn't cross the Pacific/Atlantic etc in anything less than a 200ft for sure!!!
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
The ocean is no joke. As big as a CVN is, it is still but a tiny dot in the vast ocean. If you've never seen a 50 ft swell before it makes you wet your pants and cry mommy. I wouldn't cross the Pacific/Atlantic etc in anything less than a 200ft for sure!!!
Even then, watch at 1:24-1:27 on the FFG video.that vessel is close to or over 400 ft and is hogging on that big wave with her bow and screws out of the water. I was afraid for her structure. But that's still better than sagging between two waves.

Look at that one plane tied up all by itself on the foredeck in the face of mountainous waves breaking over the bow. Did its pilot get caught in bed with the Air Boss's wife or something?
Looks like a helo to me. I was wondering about that too. They would have known from meteorological (weather) data what was coming and would have as many aircraft in the hanger as possible I would think. But they all will not fit.

There's an F-18 tucked up close to the Island...but that one helo is way forward. Trial of tie downs? Seems unlikely because if it came loose it could be pushed back into the Island or other aircraft/equip.

How about it Popeye, or kwaig? You guys served on these decks long enough to see some of this. Why is that one helo all the way out on the bow like that in these sea states?
 
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delft

Brigadier
The ocean is no joke. As big as a CVN is, it is still but a tiny dot in the vast ocean. If you've never seen a 50 ft swell before it makes you wet your pants and cry mommy. Who I respect are the seafarers of yesteryears before satnav and GPS etc... crossing the oceans in their dreadnaughts and wooden ships! Those guys have big brass ones for sure.

I wouldn't cross the Pacific/Atlantic etc in anything less than a 200ft for sure!!!
A member of my family ( I have never met him ) rowed from Peru to Australia.
 
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