PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

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Blitzo

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Why China's Next Aircraft Carrier will be Based on Soviet Blueprints

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The author of the article is positing that the prime limiter to China's first indigenous carrier now under construction is depth of design and drafting expertise. Comments, anyone.


Based on what I'm reading from the author, it seems like he's saying there is a lack of drafting and design experience and that is why the Navy has to resort with the 001A (a deviation from a Soviet design) instead of a brand new indigenous design.

However, we do not know what the actual state of Chinese shipbuilding drafting and design is, and there are also a multitude of other very plausible reasons that may also have featured into why the Chinese Navy wanted to build 001A first, instead of a fully indigenous design. This has already been discussed to great length in past pages, and includes decisions such as wanting a second carrier faster, immaturity of certain key technologies that would be required on a CATOBAR carrier, the low risk nature of the Chinese Navy in general, etc.
001A is also currently viewed by the community as the "lower risk" carrier compared to 002, which is expected to be a much more if not fully indigenous design with CATOBAR configuration, and whose design process would have occurred in the past few years as well.

Limitations in design that may have been present for 001A would have been a factor back when it was designed (past tense), five or more years ago.

In short, what he's saying is not wrong, but I think there are also various other factors that need to be considered in regards to why the Chinese Navy would've been willing to settle for a variant of an older carrier configuration. The draft and design experience may thus have been one reason why the Chinese Navy would've been willing to settle for a variant, but we can't say in any sort of confidence that it was the prime reason.


So to rephrase your ending statement, I think it would be more accurate to say this:
"The author of the article is positing that one possible limiter to China's first indigenous carrier now under construction was depth of design and drafting expertise."
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
So to rephrase your ending statement, I think it would be more accurate to say this:
"The author of the article is positing that one possible limiter to China's first indigenous carrier now under construction was depth of design and drafting expertise."

Yup based on ignorance He compare the state of Chinese ship industry to Australian Ship industry Which is as if saying Bantam weight boxer can fight Heavy weight boxer
There is no comparison China has the most efficient Ship building industry in the world And which world class shipbuilder does Australia produced . Based on what they do with Collin Submarine I wouldn't be that optimistic. There is tantalizing possibility of even GT power supply
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Here is from the horses mouth
Military observers in China are suggesting the new Chinese aircraft carrier currently under construction is going to be quite different from the country's first vessel.

Chinese officials, in confirming the construction of the new aircraft carrier, say its going to be based fully on Chinese needs and designs.

The new aircraft carrier is going to be run on a conventional power plant, and will be designed to accomodate the domestically-developed J-15 fighter jets.

China's Ministry of Defense says the design of the country's second aircraft carrier has been made from the lessons and experience gleaned from the testing done on the "Liaoning."

The "Liaoning" is China's first aircraft carrier.

It is former Soviet-designed carrier purchased from Ukraine in 2012.

Cao Weidong with the Chinese Navy's Academic Research Institute says virtually everything on the new Chinese-designed aircraft carrier is going to be different from the "Liaoning."


"It's going to have a brand new propulsion system, as well as an independently-designed hull that will be built with Chinese-developed special steel. There is no doubt that its interior structure will be totally different from the Liaoning's."


Cao Weidong says the new aircraft carrier is the latest step in China's establishment of a 'blue water' navy.

"China's naval strategy has seen a significant change from inshore a defense strategy to escort missions on the high seas. The deployment of the new aircraft carrier will make the PLA navy more capable of conducting escort missions and and protecting waterways along the 21st maritime Silk Road."

The Chinese military observer also says the new aircraft carrier is going to be well armed.

"Weapon systems, such as China's latest phased array radar, short-range anti-aircraft missiles and quick-firing cannons will be installed on the new ship. It's likely the new carrier is also going to have an upgraded communication system."

Cao Weidong says the launch of the new aircraft carrier will also give the Chinese Navy an upper hand when it comes to maritime disputes.

It's expected the carrier will still employ a so-called "ski-jump" ramp to allow the J-15 fighter jets to take off.

US-produced carriers employ a catapult system to launch their fighter jets.

At this point, there is still no timetable for the new ship's entry into service.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
This baby is 100Mw twice as powerful as RR MT30 which is rated 40Mw
China successfully tested its heavy-duty gas turbine

Apr 10, 2014 |
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Since 2002 China has been working on a national research project to independently develop a heavy-duty gas turbine named R0110. The turbine is said to have an output of 110 MW, design speed of 3000r/min, a thermal efficiency of 36% and nitrogen oxide emissions of less than 50 mg / cubic meter.

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R0110 heavy-duty gas turbine specifications (source: AVIC)

But there are also still industry experts who says the 500 million RMB funding and the time frame for the project are not realistic. It seems these nay-sayers have been proven wrong because on April 1 China reported that the national research project passed an evaluation by an governmental expert group. A cycle power plant 72 hours test run and a combined 168-hour cycle test run were completed successfully.

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R0110 heavy-duty gas turbine (2011 archive photo)

Involved companies and research institutes are:
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,
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,
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, Shenyang Engine Design Institute (606),
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,
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, and China Iron & Steel Research Institute Group (
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).

Read more (Chinese only):
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Canada’s Kanwa Defence Review published an article on January 25 on China’s development and production of QC280 gas turbines for its Type 052D destroyers.

According to the article, China developed QC280 on the basis of the technology of DA80/GT25000 gas turbine imported from Ukraine but has made a series of improvements on it.

Kanwa visited Ukraine’s Zorya JSC several times and learned from the company that it had to provide China parts and components for QC280. When China assembled and put into operation the engines, it had to provide lots of information and advices. Sometimes, it was requested to send experts to China.

QD280 consumes less fuel, has greater power than DA80 due to the improvements.

On the basis of the development of QC280, China is now developing R0110 heavy gas turbine with power output of 114,500kw and heat efficiency of 36%. The turbine has passed expert evaluation and will be used on China’s homegrown aircraft carrier.

The article points out that a new helicopter platform was built at Jiangnan Changxing Island Shipyard in May 2014. What will the platform be used for? To facilitate State leaders’ visits to the shipyard?

Source: Kanwa Defence Review “China has made breakthrough in warship engines to be installed on its homegrown aircraft carrier” (summary by Chan Kai Yee based on the report in Chinese)
 
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subotai1

Junior Member
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Why China's Next Aircraft Carrier will be Based on Soviet Blueprints


The author of the article is positing that the prime limiter to China's first indigenous carrier now under construction is depth of design and drafting expertise. Comments, anyone.

Its really not worth arguing about. Regardless of what China does, somebody will accuse them of copying. And since, externally, the ship will most likely look very similiar to a Soviet carrier, its not an argument you will win. The real design innovations will be mostly hidden.
 

Brumby

Major
So to rephrase your ending statement, I think it would be more accurate to say this:
"The author of the article is positing that one possible limiter to China's first indigenous carrier now under construction was depth of design and drafting expertise."

I don't agree with your rephrasing. My understanding of the article is that the author's view is design and drafting is a prime limiter whereas you believe is one possible limiter. In other words I don't disagree with your view on the project itself but not your view on the author's opinion.

The author is from the Lowy Institute and presumably his view is influenced by his knowledge of the Australian AWD project which he cited for his reasoning. One of the prime reason for the AWD delay is the lack of detailed design specifications which the Australians needed unlike the Spanish which could undertake a similar project with lesser specifications due to a more experienced work force having built many of it. The important question therefore is how critical is detailed design specifications in carrier construction and correspondingly how difficult is it starting from base zero to develop them.
 

Blitzo

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I don't agree with your rephrasing. My understanding of the article is that the author's view is design and drafting is a prime limiter whereas you believe is one possible limiter. In other words I don't disagree with your view on the project itself but not your view on the author's opinion.

Whoops my bad, I had intended to rephrase the first part of the statement as well. My fault, I was editing multiple posts on multiple forums as I wrote it >_>

It should instead say:
"The author of the article is likely incorrect, and should instead be positing that one possible limiter to China's first indigenous carrier now under construction was depth of design and drafting expertise."
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
I don't agree with your rephrasing. My understanding of the article is that the author's view is design and drafting is a prime limiter whereas you believe is one possible limiter. In other words I don't disagree with your view on the project itself but not your view on the author's opinion.

The author is from the Lowy Institute and presumably his view is influenced by his knowledge of the Australian AWD project which he cited for his reasoning. One of the prime reason for the AWD delay is the lack of detailed design specifications which the Australians needed unlike the Spanish which could undertake a similar project with lesser specifications due to a more experienced work force having built many of it. The important question therefore is how critical is detailed design specifications in carrier construction and correspondingly how difficult is it starting from base zero to develop them.

I don't agree with what he said because the standard CAD for both military and civilian ship design is PDMS and China use it to design hundred of ships. So they must have trained thousand of PDMS designer in their shipbuilding industry .
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He probably think the old fashion of 2 D design which is time consuming and prone of error due to everyone only design their specific discipline But 3 D design is different where every discipline work on the same model so less error and easy to review .
Another thing it is database system so just click and pick. NO reference drawing All the component is in database. Modern design system is marvel of technology.
He probably thinking of ACAD


It is like CATIA is the primary CAD for civilian as well as military aircraft
 
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tphuang

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This baby is 100Mw twice as powerful as RR MT30 which is rated 40Mw
China successfully tested its heavy-duty gas turbine

Apr 10, 2014 |
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Since 2002 China has been working on a national research project to independently develop a heavy-duty gas turbine named R0110. The turbine is said to have an output of 110 MW, design speed of 3000r/min, a thermal efficiency of 36% and nitrogen oxide emissions of less than 50 mg / cubic meter.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

R0110 heavy-duty gas turbine specifications (source: AVIC)

But there are also still industry experts who says the 500 million RMB funding and the time frame for the project are not realistic. It seems these nay-sayers have been proven wrong because on April 1 China reported that the national research project passed an evaluation by an governmental expert group. A cycle power plant 72 hours test run and a combined 168-hour cycle test run were completed successfully.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

R0110 heavy-duty gas turbine (2011 archive photo)

Involved companies and research institutes are:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, Shenyang Engine Design Institute (606),
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, and China Iron & Steel Research Institute Group (
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
).

Read more (Chinese only):
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Canada’s Kanwa Defence Review published an article on January 25 on China’s development and production of QC280 gas turbines for its Type 052D destroyers.

According to the article, China developed QC280 on the basis of the technology of DA80/GT25000 gas turbine imported from Ukraine but has made a series of improvements on it.

Kanwa visited Ukraine’s Zorya JSC several times and learned from the company that it had to provide China parts and components for QC280. When China assembled and put into operation the engines, it had to provide lots of information and advices. Sometimes, it was requested to send experts to China.

QD280 consumes less fuel, has greater power than DA80 due to the improvements.

On the basis of the development of QC280, China is now developing R0110 heavy gas turbine with power output of 114,500kw and heat efficiency of 36%. The turbine has passed expert evaluation and will be used on China’s homegrown aircraft carrier.

The article points out that a new helicopter platform was built at Jiangnan Changxing Island Shipyard in May 2014. What will the platform be used for? To facilitate State leaders’ visits to the shipyard?

Source: Kanwa Defence Review “China has made breakthrough in warship engines to be installed on its homegrown aircraft carrier” (summary by Chan Kai Yee based on the report in Chinese)
you do realize that R0110 is not a naval gas turbine, right?
 
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