PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

Jeff Head · Sep 2, 2013

Bltizo said:
We can probably cut sharp sword out of that, PLAN is still decades away from launching, flying, and recovering an unmanned vehicle as complex as

Z-15 may not eventuate as a project, because there's a good chance Z-20 will overtake it.

Z-18/modernized Z-8 may see some service aboard a future carrier, but I imagine PLAN would end up using Z-20.

Ka-31 shouldn't be present, considering it's a rotor wing AEWC (and this carrier already supposedly has Y-7 anyway), and if it did have a rotor wing AEWC, wouldn't it be Z-8Y instead?

Well, those are "squadrons," not air wings for each of the types of aircraft. All together, all of those squadrons make up the "air wing."

I agree with much of what you have said, Bltizo, though I think Sino Engineer's air wing was looking toward the furure and the ideal.

As it stands, when the PLAN initially develops their first full air wing for the Liaoning, I expect it to something like this:

1 x Squadron J-15 Strike Fighters (12-18 aircraft)
1 x Squadron KA-31 or Z-8 AEW helos (5 aircraft)
1 x Squadron Z-8 SAR helos (5 aircraft)
1 x Squadron KA-28 or Z-9 ASW helos (6 aircraft)

That would be up to 34 aircraft for the initial air wing. Later when they have enough of them, they will probably have two squadrons of J-15 of twelve aircraft each and push that to 40 aircraft. I have seen no indication that the Y-7 has been tested for the carrier yet. Not sure it will be ready in this time frame. The helo mix may vary considerably, but to begin with, the Z-8, Z-9, Ka-28 and Ka-31 will be what they have to work with. But that's just my opinion.

Air Force Brat · Sep 2, 2013

Engineer said:
Not only that, but supporting only one aircraft type means more spare parts can be carried. When crap hits the fan, the carrier can support its air wing for much longer duration.

Right Eng, and the J-15 is a twin engine, twin tailed, very agile 4.5 gen aircraft, that like the F-18 has a centrally mounted main wing, which makes it very adaptable to many roles. The XF-18 has grown into the Super Bug and is basically a very happy airplane with outstanding low speed handling, the twin verts, large horizontal stabs, and Hi-Lift wing allow it to be man-handled at very low airspeeds as evidenced by the outstanding performance of the BLUES in that aircraft, the F-18 is probably the best airshow aircraft in the military realm, just slightly behind the Flanker, which until the advent of the F-22 defined super-maneuverability, I would love to see Pugachev put the J-15 through its paces, and I guarantee that would be a treat. The J-15 is also a very happy airplane, and with the canards enhancing stability and pitch authority, it is a "perfect" carrier aircraft, and destined for a very long and happy life. While it looks very much like those early Su-27s, it is in every since a modern, modular, well thought out airframe, it will be a "winner", and you can put that in the bank. brat

Air Force Brat · Sep 2, 2013

Franklin said:
Are they going to stay at sea for a few more days or are they going directly back to Tsingdao.

Home Port kids, time to get her back into her dungarees, and take off the Sunday go to meetin duds...she needs to get back to work. brat

She is now the Flag Ship and lynchpin of PLAN!

Gorthaur · Sep 2, 2013

Jeff Head said:
Well, those are "squadrons," not air wings for each of the types of aircraft. All together, all of those squadrons make up the "air wing."

I agree with much of what you have said, Bltizo, though I think Sino Engineer's air wing was looking toward the furure and the ideal.

As it stands, when the PLAN initially develops their first full air wing for the Liaoning, I expect it to something like this:

1 x Squadron J-15 Strike Fighters (12-18 aircraft)
1 x Squadron KA-31 or Z-8 AEW helos (5 aircraft)
1 x Squadron Z-8 SAR helos (5 aircraft)
1 x Squadron KA-28 or Z-9 ASW helos (6 aircraft)

That would be up to 34 aircraft for the initial air wing. Later when they have enough of them, they will probably have two squadrons of J-15 of twelve aircraft each and push that to 40 aircraft. I have seen no indication that the Y-7 has been tested for the carrier yet. Not sure it will be ready in this time frame. The helo mix may vary considerably, but to begin with, the Z-8, Z-9, Ka-28 and Ka-31 will be what they have to work with. But that's just my opinion.

I would rather go with this mix:

2 x Squadron J-15 Strike Fighters (24 aircraft)
1 x Squadron KA-31 or Z-8 AEW helos (5 aircraft)
1 x Squadron Z-8 SAR helos (5 aircraft)

I don't see any reason for Liaoning having ASW helicopters since that is the job of the screening ships and carrier is the only platform for fighters so let's use it for that role.

kwaigonegin · Sep 2, 2013

Equation said:
What about the next future Nimitz class having a giant touch screen type "Ouija Board"? Where if the electronic screen goes out, but still display the outline of the carrier to still use the old fashion nuts and screw tangible method.

Can't.. I believe the displays are hung vertically LOL. Also the entire screen are all LCD display. There is no outline of anything if power goes out. But the most important aspect is where is the damn cranky airboss going to put his morning coffee!??
I don't believe there is touch screen anything. the 'position' of the aircraft is either done with IFF signals, some sort of sensor on board or GPS locater. It will also indicate the data for each plane such as fuel, ordnance load, etc.

Again it's all nice on paper (hmm I mean screen) and theory but in practice talking and looking beat data feeds. Right now air handlers and folks down in the flight deck controls literally talks to the folks up on the island and where they have a view of the flight deck from where they are.. then they move the pieces accordingly.

Jeff Head · Sep 2, 2013

Gorthaur said:
I don't see any reason for Liaoning having ASW helicopters since that is the job of the screening ships and carrier is the only platform for fighters so let's use it for that role.

There is a HUGE reason to have ASW helos on the carrier, and the PLAN will have them there.

Just as the US does so, and as every nation that operates carriers does so.

Here's why.

Except for usually one vessel maintaining home plate coverage for the carrier, the other escort vessels, once the group is at sea, are well out on several threat vectors, defending the carrier out 40 and more miles away. They use their helos out there to scour the sea for threats either directly in front of the oncoming carrier, or trying to come at her from the flanks.

Near the carrier, in the inner ring, the single home plate escort's helos are not enough to ensure ASW protection is provided in 360 degrees around the carrier out to 15 miles or so. An SSN helps, but also cannot be everywhere at once. So, the carrier has plenty of room to carry a squadron of 5-6 ASW helos and can have two more helos up all the time to complete inner ring coverage. They then can provide a couple of more to help escorts further away should those escorts find something out there and need help for full time prosecution of that target. So, usually 5-6 ASW helos will be stationed on the carrier.

bd popeye · Sep 2, 2013

There is no outline of anything if power goes out. But the most important aspect is where is the damn cranky airboss going to put his morning coffee!??

LAMO.. and they do get cranky.. so does his lacky.. the mini-boss. Those officers don't get a whole lot of sleep. 3-4 hours a night and maybe on a good night six..

Sea story about popeye visiting the air boss...

Heaven help you if the Air Boss summoned you up in "Vultures Row" with your Chief to visit him in Pri_Fly.

Going to see the Air Boss could be like seeing Col Kurtz in Apocalypse Now. Except when the below happened that movie was 5 years away from being released.

I got called up to see the Air Boss..once. But I was not in the wrong. The man just wanted to ask me a question..in person.

Here's what happened.

On the Hanna in Jan '75 we were recovering aircraft in the daytime. I had to stand next to the air gunner and keep track of any ordnance that was expended, hung or returned to the deck. This F-8 Crusader came in and made a hard landing. So hard in fact it's nose gear collapsed. The force of the crash caused the F-8 to skid and come to an abrupt halt and caused the starboard(right) missile rack to come loose and fly through the air then smash into the port catwalk. There was a dummy Sidewinder attached to the missile rack. The Air Gunner told me told me to get the serial number off the G & C(Guidance & Control) section and toss the mess overboard. I did so. After this the crane was used to move the crashed F-8. There was no fire or injuries. The Air Gunner then told me the Air Boss wanted to talk to me. Gulp I sez..All the way up there I'm thinkin' what did I do?? All he wanted was to know who told me to do what I did and was any FOD left in the cat walk? He coulda asked the Air Gunner that or a Yellow shirt..I think he was checking up on the Air Gunner.

Gorthaur · Sep 2, 2013

Jeff Head said:
There is a HUGE reason to have ASW helos on the carrier, and the PLAN will have them there.

Just as the US does so, and as every nation that operates carriers does so.

Here's why.

Except for usually one vessel maintaining home plate coverage for the carrier, the other escort vessels, once the group is at sea, are well out on several threat vectors, defending the carrier out 40 and more miles away. They use their helos out there to scour the sea for threats either directly in front of the oncoming carrier, or trying to come at her from the flanks.

Near the carrier, in the inner ring, the single home plate escort's helos are not enough to ensure ASW protection is provided in 360 degrees around the carrier out to 15 miles or so. An SSN helps, but also cannot be everywhere at once. So, the carrier has plenty of room to carry a squadron of 5-6 ASW helos and can have two more helos up all the time to complete inner ring coverage. They then can provide a couple of more to help escorts further away should those escorts find something out there and need help for full time prosecution of that target. So, usually 5-6 ASW helos will be stationed on the carrier.

I do understand the rationale behind that logic but if the sub is inside the outer ring it is already at the hit distance. Well, considering weapons. Depending mission I would cladly change few ASW helos to full fighter squadron. All these will be seen as we see enough fighters to choose the mix. Anyhow, speculation is fun, isn't it?

delft · Sep 2, 2013

bd popeye said:
LAMO.. and they do get cranky.. so does his lacky.. the mini-boss. Those officers don't get a whole lot of sleep. 3-4 hours a night and maybe on a good night six..

Sea story about popeye visiting the air boss...

Isn't it unsafe/dangerous to let these officers have insufficient sleep? What is the price of having twice as many officers for these jobs?

bd popeye · Sep 2, 2013

delft said:
Isn't it unsafe/dangerous to let these officers have insufficient sleep? What is the price of having twice as many officers for these jobs?

I really don't know. They get breaks on no-fly days and cat-naps from time to time.

And yes they do need more rest. They are in a non-flying status.

PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

Jeff Head

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Gorthaur

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kwaigonegin

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Jeff Head

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Gorthaur

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delft

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