PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

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antiterror13

Brigadier
No one's going to see me concede the bet until all the evidence is in, even if just for a draw!
:D
Ultimately I am curious to see how and how well CV's fit into China's grand strategy. If any Chinese carriers eventually demonstrate themselves to be white elephants or sitting ducks my assessment would still be vindicated regardless of when and how many Chinese carriers get built.

I tend to believe most CBGs are just a sitting duck against major powers (big 5), the only exception may be US Navy CBGs ... i.e US Navy would need at least 3 CBGs to realistically containing China today.

But most CBGs from major power (big 5) would be strong enough against second rated navy or lower
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
No one's going to see me concede the bet until all the evidence is in, even if just for a draw!
:D
Ultimately I am curious to see how and how well CV's fit into China's grand strategy. If any Chinese carriers eventually demonstrate themselves to be white elephants or sitting ducks my assessment would still be vindicated regardless of when and how many Chinese carriers get built.

You'll have to define what your classifications of "white elephant" and "sitting duck" are.

IMO, China's future carrier force will not be fully mature and reliably defensible against the vast majority of high capability threats until 2030 when all the pieces of China's surface combatant, naval aviation, and undersea modernization is complete.
However, before that time, China's carriers will still be able to defend themselves against a large number of lesser capability threats from lesser capability nations if conflict arose against them.

Carriers are also inherently flexible, meaning they could have a use in westpac against high capability opponents as well as be useful near africa and the middle east against lower capability opponents in irregular warfare. Not to mention that as highly capable warships themselves, they would have a powerful deterrence role so they may very well not see combat against a high capability foe to begin with.

In my view, China's future carrier force (or any carrier force by any nation on earth) could only be viably described as a "white elephant" if it offers capabilities which can be easily delivered by a variety of other platforms via cheaper or more practical means (or if the capabilities it offered were not judged to be very useful to begin with); and it could only be viably described as a "sitting duck" if it is unable to have a chance at defending itself against the majority of its conceivable opponents in the majority of its conceivable missions.
 
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Brumby

Major
Regarding 002, some big questions which will need to be resolved, is just how big it will be, as well as how many they are looking to build, and at which shipyards. Not to mention everything else about them, from airwing size, no. of elevators, island size, and of course what kind of catapults.
Many rumours seem to describe 002 as resembling the Kitty Hawk class somewhat, in line with an 80k+ ton full displacement conventionally powered supercarrier. But whether it will continue using steam turbines or move to other more advanced conventional propulsion (such as gas turbines and diesels in IEPS) is a big question, and is also related to whether 002 will use steam or EM cats. Some rumours have indicated steam might be the safer option the navy will go for, but at this stage I think there's no fully agreed upon consensus.

In envisioning what 002 may potentially be is in my view a classic horse and cart consideration. The so called rumours seem to be more of some reflection of desire rather than a fit into China's strategic grand plan. In other words, the game plan determines the program configuration and output as opposed to the converse nature.

I am unclear from the many discussions as to what is China's game plan with regards to its intended carrier operations and its fit into overall naval strategy. I would think they are the major drivers. My basic understanding is China intends to build up its carrier operation capability around a carrier sizing of initially 3 to maybe 5 further down the road. We can reasonably conclude in order to have one carrier in operation at any given time, a minimun sizing of three would be required with one for training while the remaining one is in some form of maintenance. If we take the view that the Liaoning (STOBAR) as the training carrier, 001A (STOBAR maybe) and 002 (CATOBAR but around similar tonnage) for operations, would that provide the PLAN with a better configuration in terms of building up carrier operations experience both in depth and width besides optimal interoperability as opposed to a more ambitious configuration as some have suggested? My point is, what are the coherent building blocks because carrier configuration development don't happen in a vacuum outside of some naval plans. I would ask what are the leading thoughts on this subject within the Chinese naval community?
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
In envisioning what 002 may potentially be is in my view a classic horse and cart consideration. The so called rumours seem to be more of some reflection of desire rather than a fit into China's strategic grand plan. In other words, the game plan determines the program configuration and output as opposed to the converse nature.

Oooh I'd be very careful in saying that.
The "so called" rumours which are being considered are typically meant to be from individuals with some insider knowledge of what may be going on officially (aka plans and development being undertaken officially as part of China's strategic plans).

What you're suggesting is that the rumours we try to consider are a reflection of personal desire -- aka fanboy ruminations. Most rumours of that kind are always acknowledged as such unless any evidence comes to light suggesting that they may be true, or if more traditionally knowledgeable/insider individuals come out backing up such rumours, whereupon they are considered with more seriousness and credibility.


I am unclear from the many discussions as to what is China's game plan with regards to its intended carrier operations and its fit into overall naval strategy. I would think they are the major drivers. My basic understanding is China intends to build up its carrier operation capability around a carrier sizing of initially 3 to maybe 5 further down the road. We can reasonably conclude in order to have one carrier in operation at any given time, a minimun sizing of three would be required with one for training while the remaining one is in some form of maintenance. If we take the view that the Liaoning (STOBAR) as the training carrier, 001A (STOBAR maybe) and 002 (CATOBAR but around similar tonnage) for operations, would that provide the PLAN with a better configuration in terms of building up carrier operations experience both in depth and width besides optimal interoperability as opposed to a more ambitious configuration as some have suggested? My point is, what are the coherent building blocks because carrier configuration development don't happen in a vacuum outside of some naval plans. I would ask what are the leading thoughts on this subject within the Chinese naval community?

If I had to define the Chinese Navy's future strategy/doctrine for the next decade and a half up to 2030, it would be: "To develop a navy that is 1: capable of contesting and winning a high intensity conflict in the western pacific when in conjunction friendly air and missile forces, against opposing air-naval-missile forces, and 2: for such a navy during peacetime (AKA when 1 is not occurring) to also have the capability to conduct long duration/persistent medium sized power projection missions across the globe in support of Chinese interests against low capability foreign national military forces, irregular military forces, or other low capability opponents in a low intensity environment"

How the Chinese Navy would seek to achieve this is dependent on technological development as well as China's own economic growth and whatever new threats that may arise... but assuming surface navies remain relevant for the next few decades, assuming China continues a slower paced but consistent economic growth (let's say an average of 6%), and assuming China's geopolitical position doesn't drastically worsen or improve, I'd guess the navy would probably be indeed to aim for 5 operational carriers by 2030. That would be accompanied by 3 or so amphibious assault type groups made up of an LHD and two LPDs each, and enough surface combatants to provide escort for all the carriers and amphibious assault groups while having enough left over to provide for a few surface action groups and independent surface combatant operations.

Chinese naval surface combatant production will be the big thing to watch, as it will likely reflect the eventual number of power projection vessels that China wants to have.

China's current main surface combatant arm is made up of six destroyer flotillas, each with four destroyers and four frigates each, and are currently being rapidly modernized. But the question is whether the navy will seek to expand the size of the DESFLOTs as well. I will illustrate this below:

24 054As will be produced and commissioned, which is enough to fully modernize the frigate divisions in all six DESFLOTs (4 054As per DESFLOT), but we don't know if the navy will also seek to expand its frigate division within each DESFLOT. Specifically, currently we are in a position where many expect a successor to 054A to emerge in the next few years, but of course such a hypothetical 054B would not be replacing 054As as the 054As are very young and only just entered service in the 2000s and early 2010s. If 054B production continues at the same pace at 054As did at two shipyards (HP and HD) then they could theoretically pump out another 24 054Bs by the mid to late 2020s. Will they do so? Who knows.

Same goes for 052D. At present, we know that we will have 12 052Ds produced, with the possibility of another 12 for 24 total 052Ds. If that order does occur, then even accounting for JNCX and DL both producing an 055 each continuously, that means they could quite potentially get 24 052Ds in service by 2025. By 2025, all the destroyers prior to the initial six 052Cs could possibly be retired, but that still leaves some 30 potential 052C/Ds in service -- a substantial increase in number compared to the current 24 mix and match of a few 052C/Ds, some Sovs, some 051B/Cs, a couple of 052 and couple of 052B and some 051s that will be retired imminently.

Then the big question of 055 pops up. Rumours of 055 production numbers are not firm, but 4 are said to be part of the first order with possibility of 8-12 in total. Again, assuming JN and DL both produce 055, and assuming that the first 055 from JN is launched late next year or early 2017 and that DL begins producing its first 055 around 2018, then they could quite conceivably commission up to 12 055s by 2025 or slightly later. How would 055s be integrated into the DESFLOT organization? Would they be considered destroyers like 052C/Ds, or would they be considered "large destroyers" or "destroyer leaders"? How would frigates factor in, and would they substantially out number 052C/Ds and 055s?

Personally, if I had to lay out a vision, I'd say that by the late 2020s, the Chinese naval surface combatant force may look something like so:
-48 FFGs (24 054As and 24 "054Bs")
-24+ DDGs (24 052Ds with a few 052Cs still in service)
-12 large DDGs (055s, possibly with later ships being of an "055A" variant)
Each destroyer flotilla would then be made up of 2 055s, 4 052Ds, 8 frigates (4 054A + 4 054B), and each destroyer flotilla could then neatly be separated again to become 1 055, 2 052Ds, and 4 frigates (2 054A + 2 054B) that could neatly function as an escort for any carrier or amphibious task force, and fleet wide such a force could be mixed and matched to provide enough escorts for the operational carriers and amphibious ships while retaining enough ships left over for independent SAG duties or other escort duties.
Of course, this is based on a collection of some rumours but mostly my own prediction of what the Navy may need to fulfill its future missions. Obviously any real prediction of the navy's orbat to a period as distant as 2030 is impossible and the accuracy or practicality and opportunity-cost of any orbat guess can be challenged.
 
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asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
I would add in a ARG and CSG to each fleet

Which would mean a MEU or CSG deployed 24/7

I hope China does permanently deployed a ARG and CSG once everything is in place

3 x carrier and 3 x LHD plus 9 x LPD

Each CSG

1 x carrier, 2 x DDG, 3 x FFG, 1 x tanker and 1 x SSN

Each ARG

1 x LHD, 2-3 x LPD, 1 x LST and escorts
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
No one's going to see me concede the bet until all the evidence is in, even if just for a draw!
:D
Ultimately I am curious to see how and how well CV's fit into China's grand strategy. If any Chinese carriers eventually demonstrate themselves to be white elephants or sitting ducks my assessment would still be vindicated regardless of when and how many Chinese carriers get built.
Understood about not conceding, Pan.

I would expect no less.

Despite my own confirmation on this particular carrier...I would not expect that until you are sure that it is a carrier, or until it is blatantly obvious to all, that you would concede that point.

Same is true on the 3rd carrier...which some say is already building. until you confirm that it is a carrier, or until it is blatantly obvious to all,...the issue is still open.

However, adding a new condition, like that the carriers MUST prove to be effective to your satisfaction (or anyone else's) is not a part of the wager, nor was it ever indicated to be.
 
Understood about not conceding, Pan.

I would expect no less.

Despite my own confirmation on this particular carrier...I would not expect that until you are sure that it is a carrier, or until it is blatantly obvious to all, that you would concede that point.

Same is true on the 3rd carrier...which some say is already building. until you confirm that it is a carrier, or until it is blatantly obvious to all,...the issue is still open.

However, adding a new condition, like that the carriers MUST prove to be effective to your satisfaction (or anyone else's) is not a part of the wager, nor was it ever indicated to be.

I am on the same page.
 
You'll have to define what your classifications of "white elephant" and "sitting duck" are.

IMO, China's future carrier force will not be fully mature and reliably defensible against the vast majority of high capability threats until 2030 when all the pieces of China's surface combatant, naval aviation, and undersea modernization is complete.
However, before that time, China's carriers will still be able to defend themselves against a large number of lesser capability threats from lesser capability nations if conflict arose against them.

Carriers are also inherently flexible, meaning they could have a use in westpac against high capability opponents as well as be useful near africa and the middle east against lower capability opponents in irregular warfare. Not to mention that as highly capable warships themselves, they would have a powerful deterrence role so they may very well not see combat against a high capability foe to begin with.

In my view, China's future carrier force (or any carrier force by any nation on earth) could only be viably described as a "white elephant" if it offers capabilities which can be easily delivered by a variety of other platforms via cheaper or more practical means (or if the capabilities it offered were not judged to be very useful to begin with); and it could only be viably described as a "sitting duck" if it is unable to have a chance at defending itself against the majority of its conceivable opponents in the majority of its conceivable missions.

"White elephant" means if it costs more than its worth, has to be maintained because of prestige, and doesn't have much practical use. This can be the case if China's carrier program is at the opportunity cost of deploying an overall more effective force whether it be by sea, air, or land, if it provokes more than it deters others, and if it isn't actually used in a way where nothing else could have done the job.

Similar to what you described regarding 2030, before China's carriers are deployable, defensible, and likely to survive and serve its purpose against all likely opponents it falls under both "sitting duck" and "white elephant" definitions. As it happens China's likely opponents include at least two of the top navies and air forces of the world and a number of significant albeit smaller militaries with competent naval and air arms.

Carriers offer a unique capability but they are not particularly flexible and are high maintenance especially in terms of finances and force organization. Consider the resources devoted to the carrier program could also make a lot of progress in other programs whether it be destroyers, cruisers, nuclear subs, tanker aircraft, strategic bombers, satellites, or missiles, all of which are much more flexible than carriers.

We will see how the scenarios facing China develop and how China handles them. These will determine whether and how useful carriers are to China.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
"White elephant" means if it costs more than its worth, has to be maintained because of prestige, and doesn't have much practical use. This can be the case if China's carrier program is at the opportunity cost of deploying an overall more effective force whether it be by sea, air, or land, if it provokes more than it deters others, and if it isn't actually used in a way where nothing else could have done the job.

Similar to what you described regarding 2030, before China's carriers are deployable, defensible, and likely to survive and serve its purpose against all likely opponents it falls under both "sitting duck" and "white elephant" definitions. As it happens China's likely opponents include at least two of the top navies and air forces of the world and a number of significant albeit smaller militaries with competent naval and air arms.

Carriers offer a unique capability but they are not particularly flexible and are high maintenance especially in terms of finances and force organization. Consider the resources devoted to the carrier program could also make a lot of progress in other programs whether it be destroyers, cruisers, nuclear subs, tanker aircraft, strategic bombers, satellites, or missiles, all of which are much more flexible than carriers.

We will see how the scenarios facing China develop and how China handles them. These will determine whether and how useful carriers are to China.

In other words you don't want to see China's air craft carrier program to do well other wise you wouldn't have to word it so carefully. :rolleyes:o_O
 
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