PLA strike strategies in westpac HIC

MarKoz81

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However, it is also not a good way to start an argument by suggesting that "everyone who thinks XYZ is doing so because they are emotional and just want to keep up with the joneses".

That's not my argument. Read again 2nd to 5th paragraph but not as separate statements but as single continuous line of reasoning.

It's the problem of troop morale like when you order an infantry charge at enemy positions defended by artillery but have no artillery of your own. The effectiveness of that charge is determined by morale, and morale is determined by the emotional state of the troops. Planners know this and also can relate to this - hence "emotional reasoning".

However, I do believe that the PLA has a requirement to be able to comprehensively strike US bases at the second island chain distances and very shortly would have requirements to be capable of striking at US bases beyond that, such as Australia and Hawaii (if they don't already).

This is partly a reflection of what I envision PLA strategy to be between now and the next couple of decades, my view of a westpac high intensity conflict and how the PLA will want to prosecute it, is essentially two phased.

First of all the requirement is a "want" category not a "need" category in military terms and becomes "need" once it goes out to decision makers who approve the budget.

Secondly we're talking about a delay of approximately five years which will affect the extremely volatile period between 2025 and 2029 i.e. the next US presidential term. That factor adds weight to the rumour.

While your focus is naturally China, mine was Russia and I've been watching the developments in the theater and the ongoing war very closely since before 2014. All I can say is that the war blew everyone's expectations out of the water and often in ways that very few people expected. Most of it is very mundane and won't draw attention from military (equipment) enthusiasts but nevertheless it consumes resources in the same way that a flashy program like H-20 or J-20 do. It's true for NATO as well as for Russia and I refuse to acknowledge that China miraculously made all the right calls. Some decisions that we've been able to see were correct, but some were not (in retrospect) and now everyone has to adjust on short notice. This urgent necessity would very likely be responsible for delay to H-20 if it occurs.

Right now PLA is preparing to fight without the H-20 and that is likely the current plan for the rest of the decade as fielding a completely new platform requires testing and development of tactics which takes time. USAF has the advantage of having experience with both proper long-range bombers like B-52 and B-1 and VLO bombers like B-2. PLAAF/PLANAF have experience with H-6 which has half the range of B-52 and limited aerial refueling opportunities. Aerial refueling is crucial because of larger payload, lower altitude and a flight path that is more complex to avoid detection. This means that the likelihood that PLA would have H-20 available in any meaningful number (16+ in active service) before 2029 is extremely low. Because of that and the Ukraine war strategic priorities could have been shifted and I would consider that delay a prudent decision if it came to that.

However I do not necessarily see a C-5 equivalent as vital to the PLA at present. The PLA does not yet have a global strategic oversize transport need, and I certainly wouldn't see a C-5 equivalent as being more important than H-20 (if the two are even in competition for resources to begin with, which we have no credible indicator of yet).

C-5 or An-124 are not a global capability but an oversize capability. There are certain payloads that can't be airlifted by Y-20 at all - often due to volume rather than mass - and others that can't be airlifted without excessive range loss and those payloads may or may not be relevant to whatever CMC is assuming as likely to occur in some future timeframe.

Everyone is focusing on WestPac but since Russia's terrible blunder in Ukraine a different strategic scenario has become a possibility - a proxy land war between US and China in/around Russia and/or in the Middle East.

This scenario has an added benefit of entangling the EU and potentially shifting the dynamic away from WestPac to Eurasia in part or in entirety. That's obviously Washington's highest preference because WestPac conflict is a death sentence to US in economic terms while Eurasian conflict is economically manageable because it drags everyone down with the US. Hegemonic conflicts are about survival of spheres of influence, not survival of the state. Spheres of influence are all about relative strength of countries, not absolute. If everyone is weaker, change may not occur or may not occur to the same extent.

One hint that this may be a possibility is the scale of military expansion that Poland is currently engaged in. While it is still a hypothetical until the election later this year it may be an indication that another land war is envisioned in the timeframe of about one-two decades. Considering rational forecasting and Russia's current economic condition the kind of army that Poland is planning is excessive. And certainly China using Russia as a convenient proxy is a possibility due to the fundamental change in the relationship between the two.

In such scenarios being able to quickly shift large payloads at significant distance is very useful and China lacks that capability. At the same time H-20 stops being very relevant for many reasons that I won't get into here. In proxy wars direct kinetic power projection is not a priority like in direct conflicts such as WestPac.

Another thing that suggests alternative scenarios is AUKUS. The planned SSN base in Australia is at the coast Indian Ocean. Even for SSNs that plays a role. Paired with the timeline that indicates something different that most people focus on today - at least for me.

WestPac is largely decided in terms that matter to Washington so I would be surprised if there weren't efforts to invent a more convenient alternative.

All of which is to say I think there are reasonable arguments to be made that H-20 may not be an immediate high priority, but that also doesn't mean that the idea of "H-20 not being unveiled within 5 years" is necessarily reasonable, because I think there are reasonable arguments for both.

Nobody is claiming otherwise. I only provided an explanation for why the delay would occur if at the same time J-20 and Y/YY-20 were given greater priority - as Deino's follower suggested. Because a delay to H-20 without boosting J-20 and Y/YY-20 is better explained by technical challenges. However when viewed in tandem with that specific choice it opens up a possibility for rational planning. I gave my understanding of what could be the cause in such scenario.

Also this is another argument in support of calculated delay:

But, with the introducing of more YY-20s into service (and hopefully retrofitting the H-6K/Js with mid-air refueling capability), hopefully this can increase the payload capacity of the H-6K/Js for long-distance strike missions towards the 2IC. Therefore, even while the PLAAF are still waiting for the H-20 to enter service in large enough numbers, the H-6s themselves are still a pretty capable arm for long-range strikes into the WestPac for the PLA.

The only situation where that doesn't apply is a pre-emptive strike which is a strategic consideration. If CMC decides that it allows US to take that position as more convenient strategically then no first strike is necessary and VLO loses its most crucial advantage while numbers matter always.
 
Everyone is focusing on WestPac but since Russia's terrible blunder in Ukraine a different strategic scenario has become a possibility - a proxy land war between US and China in/around Russia and/or in the Middle East.

This scenario has an added benefit of entangling the EU and potentially shifting the dynamic away from WestPac to Eurasia in part or in entirety. That's obviously Washington's highest preference because WestPac conflict is a death sentence to US in economic terms while Eurasian conflict is economically manageable because it drags everyone down with the US. Hegemonic conflicts are about survival of spheres of influence, not survival of the state. Spheres of influence are all about relative strength of countries, not absolute. If everyone is weaker, change may not occur or may not occur to the same extent.

Seems plausible, especially given recent US saber rattling against Iran. Keeping Russia and Iran out of US control is of vital strategic importance to China. Conflict in WestPac would play to China's strengths, while in Middle East and Eastern Europe, the balance of power shifts heavily in the US's favor. US would want China to focus its resources and planning efforts on the West Pac in order to draw resources and attention away from other critical areas of the world. Never strike at where the opponent is strong when you can strike at where they are weak/vulnerable.
 

FairAndUnbiased

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Registered Member
Even at ranges that are within SRBM striking distance, its always going to be far more economical to launch munitions from a stealth bomber from closer ranges than from using ballistic missiles. Even the high costs of operating a stealth bomber is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost savings from using shorter ranged air-launched munitions instead of land-based ballistic missiles. For any missions more than a few hundred km from the coast, using H-20 is going to be even more economical than H-6 which would have launch munitions from stand-off ranges. With the same level of industrial output, the amount of firepower that could be delivered by H-20 are going to be magnitudes higher than conventional ballistic missiles.
well, depends. Solid rockets can be made extremely cheaply: they do not require much machining, just welding of the casing from extruded tube stock and casting of the fuel. Machining takes a very long time to build huge number of parts because its a batch process, not continuous. I believe the only major machined components that may be required are graphite nozzles and the thrust gimbal mechanism.

On the other hand, even a cheap turbojet for a cruise missile requires a huge variety of machined parts such as the gears for the gearbox, fuel pump, etc. and high temperature metal cast (rather than low temperature polymer cast rocket fuel) components like the turbine blades.

I wouldn't be surprised if a 2 stage IRBM in China cost just ~2-3 million USD equivalent.
 

tphuang

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if a land war breaks out bw NATO and Russia in Eastern Europe and China is concerned about Russians collapse or usage of nukes, then the logical move is to attack US forces in westpac and shifting its attention away rather than moving its forces to Europe.

H-20 is the most important forthcoming PLAAF program. More than 6th gen fighter jet or any mass produced UCAVs.

You can argue about YY-20 vs H-20, but the reality is YY-20 is already in service. So the need there is to ramp up production rather than developing the aircraft
 

Biscuits

Major
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if a land war breaks out bw NATO and Russia in Eastern Europe and China is concerned about Russians collapse or usage of nukes, then the logical move is to attack US forces in westpac and shifting its attention away rather than moving its forces to Europe.

H-20 is the most important forthcoming PLAAF program. More than 6th gen fighter jet or any mass produced UCAVs.

You can argue about YY-20 vs H-20, but the reality is YY-20 is already in service. So the need there is to ramp up production rather than developing the aircraft
I wouldn't say they are urgently vital the same way more J20s, DDGs and more ASW platforms are, or expanded missile production.

H-20 would expand strategic bombing reach, but initially, China would still be able to comfortably conduct strategic bombing using multiroles and missiles.

The strength of the H-20 is that China would only need air superiority and not total air supremacy in order to start carpet bombing an eventual aggressor's cities. While that is a strong deterrent, China can do blockades and conduct SEAD on the closest potential foes (Japan and Korea) without using stealth bombers.

What China needs urgently are weapons that can halt enemy offensives. As long as China can stop the initial US offensive, victory is guaranteed due to the difference in economic size. After a failed US offensive, China can put major effort into new platform production, including the H-20, and then use them to keep pushing.

However ultimately China must have a large H-20 fleet. Because the bomber fleet is otherwise too old, and there is no successor in the pipeline for the H-6s other than the H-20.

On the topic of eventual conflict somewhere else, yes, it is smarter for US to not directly attack China. China would not be completely activated to defend a country like Iran for example. The fight would be much more even, and proxy wars are much more winnable than territorial aggression wars. But for US to shift strategies, it would require the humiliation to give up on their claims inside China. I don't know if there is enough pragmatists in their government for them to change strategies.
 

tphuang

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I wouldn't say they are urgently vital the same way more J20s, DDGs and more ASW platforms are, or expanded missile production.

H-20 would expand strategic bombing reach, but initially, China would still be able to comfortably conduct strategic bombing using multiroles and missiles.

The strength of the H-20 is that China would only need air superiority and not total air supremacy in order to start carpet bombing an eventual aggressor's cities. While that is a strong deterrent, China can do blockades and conduct SEAD on the closest potential foes (Japan and Korea) without using stealth bombers.

What China needs urgently are weapons that can halt enemy offensives. As long as China can stop the initial US offensive, victory is guaranteed due to the difference in economic size. After a failed US offensive, China can put major effort into new platform production, including the H-20, and then use them to keep pushing.

However ultimately China must have a large H-20 fleet. Because the bomber fleet is otherwise too old, and there is no successor in the pipeline for the H-6s other than the H-20.

On the topic of eventual conflict somewhere else, yes, it is smarter for US to not directly attack China. China would not be completely activated to defend a country like Iran for example. The fight would be much more even, and proxy wars are much more winnable than territorial aggression wars. But for US to shift strategies, it would require the humiliation to give up on their claims inside China. I don't know if there is enough pragmatists in their government for them to change strategies.
The flexibility of H-20 and what they can do makes attack missions an order of magnitude easier to plan and carry out than H-6.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
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Everyone is focusing on WestPac but since Russia's terrible blunder in Ukraine a different strategic scenario has become a possibility - a proxy land war between US and China in/around Russia and/or in the Middle East.

This scenario has an added benefit of entangling the EU and potentially shifting the dynamic away from WestPac to Eurasia in part or in entirety. That's obviously Washington's highest preference because WestPac conflict is a death sentence to US in economic terms while Eurasian conflict is economically manageable because it drags everyone down with the US. Hegemonic conflicts are about survival of spheres of influence, not survival of the state. Spheres of influence are all about relative strength of countries, not absolute. If everyone is weaker, change may not occur or may not occur to the same extent.

One hint that this may be a possibility is the scale of military expansion that Poland is currently engaged in. While it is still a hypothetical until the election later this year it may be an indication that another land war is envisioned in the timeframe of about one-two decades. Considering rational forecasting and Russia's current economic condition the kind of army that Poland is planning is excessive. And certainly China using Russia as a convenient proxy is a possibility due to the fundamental change in the relationship between the two.

In such scenarios being able to quickly shift large payloads at significant distance is very useful and China lacks that capability. At the same time H-20 stops being very relevant for many reasons that I won't get into here. In proxy wars direct kinetic power projection is not a priority like in direct conflicts such as WestPac.

If you're now talking about a land proxy war involving Russia or the Middle East, then we're looking at China directly supplying ridiculously large amounts of munitions and equipment.

You get a figure of 300K Shaheed cruise missiles per month if 20% of China's motorcycle engine production is repurposed. If we're talking about smaller DJI-type drones, 100K per month is easily feasible as well. Then you've got all the other munitions, drones, aircraft, vehicles etc etc

You easily get to the point where there are enough munitions to target every individual soldier as soon as they are spotted.

And I notice that the Jilin-1 cubesat constellation is due to the completed this year, with a revisit time of just 10minutes anywhere on the planet. So we're looking at near real-time optical coverage by Chinese satellites.

So my conclusion is that if there is a land proxy war with China seriously supplying weapons and targeting info, such a proxy war will not last very long as the Chinese side would win pretty quickly. It wouldn't "bleed" China per se.

Plus if you look at the cost of China supplying these munitions and equipment, it's actually a minor increase in the overall budget. Call it somewhere between $10-$20 Bn per month for 3months.
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
if a land war breaks out bw NATO and Russia in Eastern Europe and China is concerned about Russians collapse or usage of nukes, then the logical move is to attack US forces in westpac and shifting its attention away rather than moving its forces to Europe.

H-20 is the most important forthcoming PLAAF program. More than 6th gen fighter jet or any mass produced UCAVs.

You can argue about YY-20 vs H-20, but the reality is YY-20 is already in service. So the need there is to ramp up production rather than developing the aircraft

I am not sure China wants to start AR according to America’s timetable just to relieve pressure on the Russians. That would be a total inversion of China’s priorities.

Indeed, China may well see an Europe theatre as a prime opportunity to bleed the US and force it to shift forces and resource away from WestPac, which would be a nice bit of pre-work to set the stage for maximum advantage for AR.

Contrary to popular western propaganda, China is not itching to start AR the first chance it gets. Ideally it would want to avoid AR and achieve reunification through peaceful means.

If AR is unavoidable, Beijing will go to great lengths to demonstrate that it is indeed the last resort, only to be taken when all other acceptable options have been exhausted, and it will launch the operation to its own schedule and as it’s own prime historical moment, rather than as a sideshow to try to drag attention away from elsewhere.
 

AndrewS

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if a land war breaks out bw NATO and Russia in Eastern Europe and China is concerned about Russians collapse or usage of nukes, then the logical move is to attack US forces in westpac and shifting its attention away rather than moving its forces to Europe.

I don't see China having to start a war if the Russians are in danger of collapse.

China should be able to provide more than enough conventional support in terms of near real-time optical satellite coverage and also munitions.
 

HighGround

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Well, they're already supplying commercial satellite imagery, and not all CN conventional munitions are compatible with Russian weapon systems. Much of the utility of Chinese systems can't be realized without the whole kit and caboodle. Passively supporting AFRF action in Ukraine would require a substantial concerted effort, involving the transfer of large numbers of complete systems - otherwise it'll be too piecemeal to have much effect. Try not to fall into the trap of thinking technical capabilities in a vacuum are enough to win wars, it's something I see lots of people doing (on the UA side as well, i.e. "F-16s1!!!1!" and "send ATACMs!!!").

Funny, isn't that how the entire think tank community approaches this subject?

Everyone talks in terms of capabilities, rather than systems.
 
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