PLA strike strategies in westpac HIC

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
I have no idea what you are talking about. China should take all measures to avoid a real kinetic conflict. However, if it deems that its red line has been crossed or it is about to be attacked, it should definitely not wait for the attack to come. That first strike matters
In the era of drones being disposable ISR assets, there are many steps that can be taken to monitor right until the second hostility starts.

As I see it, the most likely scenario, when China sees the buildup of American invasion forces, it will firstly cordon off the separatist territories from the outside world. There will be a ban of entry and ban of exit, as well as shelling on targets seen as potential threats against the changed border conditions.

Then, China will let America openly interfere in the civil war if they want to. Drones and satellites will be watching their formations 24/7. Ships will escort them if they come near no fly and no sail zones.

If they fire first, they will paint themselves as the aggressor globally and China will be justified in hitting them all over Asia. If they just do nothing, then China will stabilize the situation on Taiwan province, forward deploy radars, AAMs, DF-17, 26 and likely by then also 27, rendering further attempts at invasion near impossible.

I'm just being realistic about how China would approach an imminent threat based on their previous responses. I'm not saying this is necessarily the optimal response.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
What we are saying is that China should do no major visible buildup. It will normalize major exercises around the region so that it can initiate conflict on its terms when certain red line gets crossed and the other side wouldn't know for sure that something is coming.

Again, only applicable if the US allows China the initiative of attacking when it suits China’s timetable.

You seem to have no concept of how much time USN or PLAN boats spend in the port or under repairs. US navy uses its fleet very excessively which leads to long downtimes after completion of mission. This is not a matter of luck. This is just regular reality. Stuff breaks down after 9 months missions around the world. Even aside from that, forward deployed operational fleet still spend good chunk of their time in port.

Surely you can appreciate the difference between peacetime, regularly scheduled programming and wartime emergency measures?

Things break on ships and crews need rest and rotation sure, but are you telling me that should the proverbial truly hit the fan, and it becomes a matter of getting ships out of port or loosing them, that the USN cannot scramble to get ships out to sea? It doesn’t matter if half the crew are missing and none of the weapons work, if they can put out to sea and stay within the protective umbrella of a friendly fleet, they got a far higher chance of survival than sitting tied up at port. And they don’t need to go far or into combat, just relocate somewhere else to finish repais. If Japan is no good, there is Guam, Pearl, San Diego, even the US east coast. How far do you want to chase them just to get a few cheap kills?

And even if there are a few ships so run down and broken down they literally couldn’t get out of the harbour to save their own lives, how much difference would killing them in port really make?

Even for ships in the sea, you want to hit them when they are not prepared. Aside from hypersonic missiles being harder to intercept, they also give defender less time to move from their original spot and set up defense.
And that’s what the 093Bs should be focused on doing, rather than wasting their element of surprise and munitions on fixed targets that so many other platforms and weapons can hit just as effectively.

They would achieve far more damage and disruption quietly laying mines than launching a few big missiles.

Why would hitting San Diego be excessive? US military will hit targets in China on the mainland. As such, PLA needs to be planning the same.
Sure, direct kinetic hits on CONUS targets will generate significant psychological impact and may also bag a few juicy targets in the form of principle capital ships like LHD/As or even a carrier, but at what risk and cost for the PLAN assets involved?

The US has a vast and well established network of allies, bases and forward deployed forces on China’s front doorstep, as well as the world’s biggest SSN and SSG fleets to allow it to hit the Chinese mainland. But even with all that going for them, we are looking at a pretty realistic scenario where the US military gets rolled back all the way to Guam if not further just from the opening exchanges in any shooting war.

How does China plan to attack the US west coast with zero bases or allies, all the while needing to get past the US allies, fleets, subs and sonar networks in the pacific?

Lone subs have the best chance to sneak past, but have limited munitions to achieve much real impact and would be at great peril once they reveal themselves so close to the US homeland. They will have USN SSNs and MPAs swarming after them.

Maybe that’s a goal to try and keep US forces in their front yard chasing shadows instead of massing on yours, and there would be some merit and worth to that. But also risks and costs, because those US forces will only stay close to home if you keep hitting them at home. All the while they will be looking to push you back so as soon as you stop threatening their r they are going to push back towards you.

All of this sounds very familiar because it’s what the German surface fleet tried to do in WWII and failed. Sending lone ships deep into enemy territory unsupported makes it very likely those lone ships will die out there, and most likely for minimal cost to the enemy.

Lets not even start on how risky and unwise it would be to send surface ships or carrier groups to try to hit San Diego.

The best asset for such deep strikes would be SSGNs, and maybe H20s if they are intercontinental ranged, which once in position can spam enough missiles to have a good chance of doing enough damage to make the whole thing worthwhile. But it’s more likely China would save the SSGN hulls for SSBNs and use H20s for nuclear deterrence first rather than conventional strike against San Diego, because again priorities. China should be a lot more worried about US nuclear blackmail or brinkmanship in the event of a major conventional loss. Which is precisely what they are focusing on, rather than doubling down trying to get a slightly bigger conventional win.

We do not know what 093B capabilities are. But if it can get into open ocean without being tailed and has a VLS module with 1500nm ASBM, then it should be used to attack US naval fleet that are getting worked up. Keep in mind that it will take over 40 days for US navy to prepare a fleet to come in Taiwan's aid. If you are PLA, you want to disrupt that process if you can.
Yes, now we are talking, that’s what the 093Bs could and should be doing besides providing ASW support for PLAN surface fleets, not waste their time, potential and munitions shooting fish in a barrel that trying to hit ships in US forward deployed ports that couldn’t move in the event of a shooting war between the US and China would be.
 

tphuang

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Again, only applicable if the US allows China the initiative of attacking when it suits China’s timetable.
hmm, it's pretty obvious when there are additional US assets in the theater. PLA can always launch the first strike if it wants to.
Surely you can appreciate the difference between peacetime, regularly scheduled programming and wartime emergency measures?
Things break on ships and crews need rest and rotation sure, but are you telling me that should the proverbial truly hit the fan, and it becomes a matter of getting ships out of port or loosing them, that the USN cannot scramble to get ships out to sea? It doesn’t matter if half the crew are missing and none of the weapons work, if they can put out to sea and stay within the protective umbrella of a friendly fleet, they got a far higher chance of survival than sitting tied up at port. And they don’t need to go far or into combat, just relocate somewhere else to finish repais. If Japan is no good, there is Guam, Pearl, San Diego, even the US east coast. How far do you want to chase them just to get a few cheap kills?
there will always be ships in the port and ships under repairs. For ships outside the port, there is also a difference between being on high alert in war time vs just regularly moving around.

That's why you do the opening strike, so the other side is not on high alert.

And even if there are a few ships so run down and broken down they literally couldn’t get out of the harbour to save their own lives, how much difference would killing them in port really make?


And that’s what the 093Bs should be focused on doing, rather than wasting their element of surprise and munitions on fixed targets that so many other platforms and weapons can hit just as effectively.

They would achieve far more damage and disruption quietly laying mines than launching a few big missiles.


Sure, direct kinetic hits on CONUS targets will generate significant psychological impact and may also bag a few juicy targets in the form of principle capital ships like LHD/As or even a carrier, but at what risk and cost for the PLAN assets involved?

The US has a vast and well established network of allies, bases and forward deployed forces on China’s front doorstep, as well as the world’s biggest SSN and SSG fleets to allow it to hit the Chinese mainland. But even with all that going for them, we are looking at a pretty realistic scenario where the US military gets rolled back all the way to Guam if not further just from the opening exchanges in any shooting war.

How does China plan to attack the US west coast with zero bases or allies, all the while needing to get past the US allies, fleets, subs and sonar networks in the pacific?
I've been trying to explain this to you. Once you get past the Japan SOSUS and into Pacific Ocean, finding a quiet sub is like finding needle in a haystack. There is no sonar network in the middle of Pacific Ocean. And even if they existed, there is nothing they can cue up. Again, stuff I've actually confirmed with real submariner.

Put a few quiet submarines in the middle of a large ocean, the chance of them bouncing into each other and then keeping track over long period of time is really low.

Lone subs have the best chance to sneak past, but have limited munitions to achieve much real impact and would be at great peril once they reveal themselves so close to the US homeland. They will have USN SSNs and MPAs swarming after them.
1500 nm range
just how is USN SSN going to catch up to 093B?
and what MPA is going to have the range for that?

Maybe that’s a goal to try and keep US forces in their front yard chasing shadows instead of massing on yours, and there would be some merit and worth to that. But also risks and costs, because those US forces will only stay close to home if you keep hitting them at home. All the while they will be looking to push you back so as soon as you stop threatening their r they are going to push back towards you.

All of this sounds very familiar because it’s what the German surface fleet tried to do in WWII and failed. Sending lone ships deep into enemy territory unsupported makes it very likely those lone ships will die out there, and most likely for minimal cost to the enemy.

Lets not even start on how risky and unwise it would be to send surface ships or carrier groups to try to hit San Diego.

The best asset for such deep strikes would be SSGNs, and maybe H20s if they are intercontinental ranged, which once in position can spam enough missiles to have a good chance of doing enough damage to make the whole thing worthwhile. But it’s more likely China would save the SSGN hulls for SSBNs and use H20s for nuclear deterrence first rather than conventional strike against San Diego, because again priorities. China should be a lot more worried about US nuclear blackmail or brinkmanship in the event of a major conventional loss. Which is precisely what they are focusing on, rather than doubling down trying to get a slightly bigger conventional win.


Yes, now we are talking, that’s what the 093Bs could and should be doing besides providing ASW support for PLAN surface fleets, not waste their time, potential and munitions shooting fish in a barrel that trying to hit ships in US forward deployed ports that couldn’t move in the event of a shooting war between the US and China would be.
no, the best form of ASW for PLAN fleet is MPAs/Helicopters and have a whole bunch of sensors around 1st and 2nd island chain. Performing regular ASW duties as part of a flotilla does not prevent it from launching ASBMs in the initial phase of a conflict. After those initial exchanges are completed/settled, it is free to go as far as it needs to go for additional strikes.

If you are concerned about Virginia class sub getting to 800 nm of mainland and launching LACMs at Chinese targets. sorry to break it to you, but 093B by itself aren't going to be able to find those subs. The most likely counter detection for PLAN is just polluting the water around itself with massive amount of sensors which then cue up MPAs and helicopters to search a much smaller area.
 

Pacific

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I spent the better part of today making a map.

I hope someone finds this useful or interesting.

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View attachment 104663
Don't let me get in the way of your arguing civilized discourse guys. ;)

Just passing along.

I made a more detailed version where the threat radius are centered around the actual missile brigades.

Note: The info on PLA cruise missiles I read around the internet, even from "credible sources" is very confusing and inconsistent.
I took the lower estimate for ranges of most missiles.

Interesting things to note for people might not have noticed before:
Most SRBM Brigades are in the Southeast, facing Taiwan, makes sense.
Most PLARF Brigades face the East, makes sense, there's one DF-26 Brigade in Korla though and a few unknown Brigades around Lanzhou.
I think most people forget about this, but the Earth is a Globe, that means PLARF IRBM Missiles can technically threaten locations as far out as Attu in the North Pacific and Chagos in the Indian Ocean.

To be honest, I find it unlikely either North Korea or Russia would have a massive problem with the PLA firing missiles over their airspace. They might complain publicly, but I think they wouldn't really do anything about it.

Hell, we might argue North Korea couldn't stop it even if they wanted to.

Hell, if you want a really spicy take, we might argue Russia couldn't do anything about it even if they wanted to.

Again, I predict the US will focus its efforts on new bases within the Orange and Yellow Ranges in the future.

The SRBM red range is too close. Outside of the IRBM yellow range is safer, but too far except for logistics and long range bombers.

The Philippines, Palau, Colonia (Micronesia), and Guam/North Marianas is where I expect the US to focus on in the coming decades.

In my opinion, neutrality of any nation is much more favorable towards China's position. I think the US will try really hard to bring in more allies, at least allies willing to allow US basing, if not join in the war, especially the Philippines. The Philippines has a really great card of "strategic geographic location" it can play here. I wonder what it will trade it for, or whether it will keep it in its hand and use the threat of playing for the other side to extract leverage from the US and China.

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DetailedThreatRadius25.png
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
That would be a massive tactical disadvantage for China, which is the whole point of strategic ambiguity for the US.
There is no disadvantage because in my mind the moment the PLA goes against Taiwan, they will first strike American assets (unless significant real signalling has been done by the US before that they will be staying out ).

It is simply unthinkable to me that China goes AR (no blockade and all that stuff, I mean invasion-style AR) without being 100% sure that Americans won't get involved.

So by that thinking, US strategic ambiguity is just fart in the wind. Whatever the US says, it doesn't matter because imo bar significant signalling by the US, the PLA will strike them anyway

Why would hitting San Diego be excessive? US military will hit targets in China on the mainland. As such, PLA needs to be planning the same.
Maybe that why we are increasingly see public commentary that the US will avoid hitting the Chinese mainland. They present it as a concession to China, but IMO they are more worried that China will do exactly the same to them so they try to make a "deal" that will make the PLA avoid hitting their ports
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
The SRBM red range is too close. Outside of the IRBM yellow range is safer, but too far except for logistics and long range bombers.

The Philippines, Palau, Colonia (Micronesia), and Guam/North Marianas is where I expect the US to focus on in the coming decades.

In my opinion, neutrality of any nation is much more favorable towards China's position. I think the US will try really hard to bring in more allies, at least allies willing to allow US basing, if not join in the war, especially the Philippines. The Philippines has a really great card of "strategic geographic location" it can play here. I wonder what it will trade it for, or whether it will keep it in its hand and use the threat of playing for the other side to extract leverage from the US and China.

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The Philippines will remain neutral if they can. They barely have an Air Force or Navy.

---

And I noticed that the Boeing expendable Loyal Wingman drone is now listed with a range of 3700km.

If China develops an equivalent drone, along with a H-20 stealth bomber or a Chinese NGAD, that means airbases on the Chinese mainland launching air-superiority missions to a 3700km distance.

So it's a single airbase in Guam versus scores of airbases on mainland China.
We all know how that will end.

And such a calculation will apply to all of the few US bases within 3500km of China

So I reckon the US has a single decade (rather than decades) where it could focus on airbases/allies some 1500-3500km away.
After 2032, it should be obvious that these bases are too close and too vulnerable to massed sorties launched from Chinese airbases.

---
EDIT

And if you look at the sum of PLAAF and PLAN procurement of aircraft and ships today, you can see China is matching everything the US military buys, roughly speaking.

Plus you have to consider the impact of low-cost Shaheed-136 munitions (1800-2500km range @ $20K?) being the functional equivalent of a 500lb JDAM. And how these munitions can be launched in potentially huge salvoes from existing Chinese Army trucks. And it shouldn't be too difficult to develop a somewhat longer ranged version to reach 3000km to Guam for example.
 
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tphuang

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Keep in mind of the mutual defense agreement between North Korea and china. At minimum you can expect that china will be able to land aircraft on some occasions in Russia or nk and fly over their air space. There is a good chance that china calls on nk to fire ballistic missiles at Japan. Nk will gladly do it if it sees Japan is in trouble. And if South Korea gets adventurous, Seoul will get attacked by the 5000 nk artilleries.

Again, Russia is a big question mark. Will they allow china to move their ballistic missile units into their territory or use their far east military bases. I see a couple that would really help china.

Instead of drawing circles around china, the better method is drawing circles around possible places you want to attack and then figure out how you can move your assets there.

Even aside from what I already discussed, I think they will need to find ways of interdicting surface ships coming in from Indian ocean. They need to be able to attack Diego Garcia. They will need to find ways to attack tindal and any Australian assets that might help.
 

theforgotten0007

New Member
Registered Member
Keep in mind of the mutual defense agreement between North Korea and china. At minimum you can expect that china will be able to land aircraft on some occasions in Russia or nk and fly over their air space. There is a good chance that china calls on nk to fire ballistic missiles at Japan. Nk will gladly do it if it sees Japan is in trouble. And if South Korea gets adventurous, Seoul will get attacked by the 5000 nk artilleries.

Again, Russia is a big question mark. Will they allow china to move their ballistic missile units into their territory or use their far east military bases. I see a couple that would really help china.

Instead of drawing circles around china, the better method is drawing circles around possible places you want to attack and then figure out how you can move your assets there.

Even aside from what I already discussed, I think they will need to find ways of interdicting surface ships coming in from Indian ocean. They need to be able to attack Diego Garcia. They will need to find ways to attack tindal and any Australian assets that might help.
I think this take is too optimistic.

Any country permitting use of military assets for China in a taiwan contingency automatically opens them up to scrutiny and paints a target on their back. The same way any country allowing US to operate their assets for use against China would be considered hostile to China.

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(@1:12:05)
 

theorlonator

Junior Member
Registered Member
I think this take is too optimistic.

Any country permitting use of military assets for China in a taiwan contingency automatically opens them up to scrutiny and paints a target on their back. The same way any country allowing US to operate their assets for use against China would be considered hostile to China.

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(@1:12:05)
So you think Japan won't get involved?
 
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