PLA strike strategies in westpac HIC

ACuriousPLAFan

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The fact that the US is investing so much in facilities beyond 1IC such as Tindall, Wake, Palau and Guam suggests that they don't expect the facilities on the 1IC to last very long in a shooting war.
Just from Patch's posts, it's pretty clear the US can see how the PLA can basically generate 'overwhelming fires' (basically attacks with a variety of missiles) against targets within the 1 IC.

So yea, pretty unrealistic that they can survive the onset of hostilities.
There are other locations around the 2IC other than the 4 islands in Guam/the Marianas as well.

Minamitorishima (Marcus Island)Existing Military Airport~3200km from Shanghai
Iwo JimaExisting Military Airport~2000km
Ogasawara/HahajimaUnsuitable for Airport construction without large scale engineering work~2000km
Colonia (Micronesia)Small Civilian Airport (Suitable for Expansion)~3000km
PalauSmall Civilian Airport (Suitable for Expansion)~3000km
Pohnpei (Micronesia)Small Civilian Airport (Suitable for Expansion with some engineering work))~4600km

And don't forget Okinotorishima. ~1900km

Which is why its funny to see Japan complain about China in the SCS when they claim this "island" exerts a EEZ.

I expect to see the US pressure Japan to improve military infrastructures at these locations.

I expect the US to pressure Palau and Micronesia to allow the US to upgrade and station forces at those locations as well.
I think we can agree that by now/in the near future, the PLA most likely already have/would have enough firepower to lock the US and her allies out of the First Island Chain.

However, now is the time that China should look further ahead - Towards mastering enough firepower to enact the lockdown of the Second Island Chain from intervention by the US and her allies as well, and as soon as possible. The US military, and that of their allied militaries, should be kept as far away from Chinese borders as possible.

In fact, I think this is the goal that the PLA must aim to achieve for this decade.

We have witnessed newer and upcoming weapons and platforms for longer-range warfighting, such as the H-20, YJ-21, DF-27, 093B & 095 etc being gradually introduced into PLA service for this exact purpose. Although, I believe that their procurement and deployment should be further upgraded and expanded in order for the PLA to achieve that goal.
 
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AndrewS

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I think we can agree that by now/in the near future, the PLA most likely already have/would have enough firepower to lock the US and her allies out of the First Island Chain.

Yes. And such a capability has huge implications for the credibility of US military guarantees in the Western Pacific.

If the US can't provide economic nor military security, then what use is an alliance with the USA?
 

tphuang

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No, it’s a matter of priorities. Such targets would be a nice bonus, but your entire strategy should not depend on being able to hit the enemy fleet like that.




So, you want the PLAN to use some of their newest, most capable and most important naval assets to hit ships that are essentially out of commission and unlikely to play any role in the war?

Given the vast number and variety of other strike options the PLA have for such sitting duck targets, why do you need to task 093Bs for this? Just to overkill them 4 times instead of 3?



And I’m sure the USN would be most accommodating and place itself at a position of maximum vulnerability at the best time for China to attack. You don’t do planning like that!

Besides, the odds are that it will be America who would initiate the fight, because time is on China’s side and Chinese leaders have more patience than American ones. If China was to pick and chose the time for the fight, it would do so at a point where it’s basically guaranteed America would not dare to get directly involved as the odds would be so overwhelmingly against them.

If America gets to pick and choose when to start the fight, of course they are not going to do it with a bunch of its fleet out of commission and placed nearly within range of Chinese missiles at port!
No, china should definitely get itself ready to do the first strike if it thinks us military is about to do that. As we discussed, initiating the exchange is very important.

Your other comments don't make sense. Most of us naval assets in Asia and Pacifica will be in port or docks somewhere at the start of the conflict. So pla definitely want to hit them when they are the least prepared. That's why normalizing these large scale exercises with Russians and around Taiwan is important. Us navy would have minimal confidence in determining a real attack from a large war game. If us naval assets are out and about, then it becomes so much harder to prosecute your attack.

And after the initial strikes, it would be silly for them to not try to after naval assets and facilities that are further away like pearl, Bremerton and San Diego. Why would not go after those targets? Great time to cause further destructions to ships that are getting repaired, to the repair facilities and to any other facilities that could help American war efforts.
 

theforgotten0007

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I think the analyses here thus far on future Type 004s++ have been rather short-sighted tbh and policies out of China have always reflected long-term thinking. Yes, carriers are meant to project power overseas and support allied nations but I suspect we've all been looking at it at from the wrong angle.

Even considering China's manufacturing capabilities, there can never be enough firepower from a conservative standpoint. Initial planning for a Taiwan contingency would dictate sufficient FIRES needed to take out any ROC assets and deter foreign military aid to the island.

But carrier strike groups don't just play a defensive role and USN's doctrine has traditionally been more
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one.

IF we see PLAN fielding 5-6 CVNs by 2035-2040s, this could then suggest China already has secondary plans set in sights for a counter-offensive on all foreign-based assets within the region i.e. Guam; Alaska; Okinawa; KATUSA & Subic Bay (latter 2 depending on their agreement w/ US when conflict breaks out - only wild card here being big Kimmy). To that end, China would be wise not to squander away the initiative, assuming of course the initial phases of the offensive goes smoothly (taking the island + deter foreign military assistance + pacification with PAPs).

Assisting US against China also provides casus belli for China to return the favour and settle some longstanding disputes with its neighbours:
- SCS islands' ownership for a start are free game if Philippines allow USN to operate from Subic bay
- Okinawa will be liberated (perhaps even compelled to declare independence from mainland Japan - gladly I might add considering strong sentiments from Ryukyu constituents)
- Guam will be glassed
-
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Enter CVNs & J35s; DF-27s; H-20s.

This is what I believe, are the true goals of next gen. long range weaponry due to be inducted by the PLA. I also believe countries seeking to interfere in China's conclusion to the civil war, primarily US, understands this and how high the stakes are for the defenders.
 

Blitzo

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When I look at some scenarios being put forward, I cannot help but think people are just imagining Pearl Harbour 2.0, with all the assumptions and baggage that goes with that.

But the Chinese will likely purposefully avoid making such an obvious and silly historic parallel. It’s alpha strike is not going to be aimed to ships in port, but rather ships underway because China doesn’t want and cannot afford to rely on a sucker punch to win, and instead want to be able to delivery and land hay markers ‘fair and square’ all day long until the other guy goes down and stays down.

I agreed with the other parts of your posts, but I just can't wrap my head around this part.

Every military wants to fight in as imbalanced and advantageous a position as possible, so why would targeting ships at port not be considered an important target set?

Ideally, every military wants to get the jump on the enemy when the opponent is least prepared, to enable themselves to carry out subsequent operations more easily.


Now, we can of course debate over the specifics of whether using 09IIIBs for the strike/missile role is the best use of them in whatever given time span we want, but that doesn't mean the idea of launching a thorough and expansive initial set of strikes is illogical, and it certainly doesn't mean one should "not rely on a sucker punch to win".


Heck -- I bet every military *wants* to rely on a sucker punch to win if they could.
In the case of the PLA, obviously this so called "sucker punch" isn't going to achieve victory by itself, but would be part of an expansive set of other plans and subsequent operations, and that's because of how formidable the conflict would be.
Given how formidable the conflict would be, why do wouldn't the PLA aim to try and secure every advantage they could?

I also don't know what pearl harbour has to do with anything. Pearl harbour itself is associated with too many historical political connotations, and pearl harbour is hardly the world's only example of striking naval facilities and naval ships in port at the outset of conflict.
I don't think anyone necessarily expects China to launch an attack without a declaration of war, bolt out of the blue, if that's what you're concerned about.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
No, china should definitely get itself ready to do the first strike if it thinks us military is about to do that. As we discussed, initiating the exchange is very important.

And I never disputed that, the point I have been making throughout is that China’s military planning cannot depend on being able to throw the first punch and land a knock-out blow. That’s where the Japanese went wrong and China would be stupid to repeat that mistake


Your other comments don't make sense. Most of us naval assets in Asia and Pacifica will be in port or docks somewhere at the start of the conflict. So pla definitely want to hit them when they are the least prepared. That's why normalizing these large scale exercises with Russians and around Taiwan is important. Us navy would have minimal confidence in determining a real attack from a large war game. If us naval assets are out and about, then it becomes so much harder to prosecute your attack.

That very much depends on the war going according to China’s timetable and plans doesn’t it? If it’s the US that decides to initiate the war, you think they would do it at a time when most of their fleet is down and undergoing repairs and maintenance?

Again, unless you are talking about a Pearl Harbour 2.0 surprise attack (which seems to be basically what you are advocating), the war won’t just go from zero to fire all missiles with the snap of your fingers.

Realistically speaking, barring some massive unexpected freak event, there will be a lengthy period of build-up and escalating tensions on both sides before the first shot is fired. Just from a logistics POV, the PLAN has just as many, if not more of its fleet at port at any one time as the USN. Sure, the PLAN will have better spin-up times since their ships are at port waiting on orders in high readiness states rather than being on rest and repair break from long deployments, but it would still take time to get the ships and crews ready for deployment, which will be very obvious if the PLAN is making its whole fleet ready to put out to sea. And no, no major exercise would come close to the scale of activity that would happen in the event of active preparation for real AR.

One also need to remember that AR, above all else, will be a political decision, and American direct involvement is by no means guaranteed if it’s China that kicks things off.

From a purely tactical POV, it might make sense to do a surprise alpha strike, but from a strategic and political POV, that might not make sense since doing so would turn a possibility into a certainty.

The costs and consequences of a direct shooting war between the US and China would be so colossal, I think China will not fire the first shot against the Americans unless the US formally and blindingly commit to going to war over Taiwan in the event of AR first.

Instead I think the PLA will try to force the US to commit first, either by crossing a declared red line, or firing the first shot, and the US will do everything it can to resist tipping its hand prematurely. Eventually a point might be reached where China decides that it is a certainty that America will attack, thus there is no point in waiting, but the Americans will wish to stretch that time as long as possible. But the point is, from China’s POV, it has to approach its prep from a worst case scenario to be fully prepared, which involves having to fight the entire USN forward deployed fleet out at sea rather than hoping to catch a meaningful number of them at port.

That would be a massive tactical disadvantage for China, which is the whole point of strategic ambiguity for the US.

If they can and do catch principle USN surface combatants in port, great bonus. But they should not plan around it, never mind re-tasking critically important assets like 093Bs for such missions, because ships at port are so acutely vulnerable, you have far bigger problems if you need to do special preparation to hit them. That’s like saying J20s need to have a long range surface strike capability and that all J20s doing CAP missions should carry such ground attack munitions just in case they find F35s still on the ground. There are so many other assets and weapons that can and should be doing the surface strike missions that J20s really should not be wasting their time and combat potential for those missions unless and until you have so many J20s that air dominance is assured.


And after the initial strikes, it would be silly for them to not try to after naval assets and facilities that are further away like pearl, Bremerton and San Diego. Why would not go after those targets? Great time to cause further destructions to ships that are getting repaired, to the repair facilities and to any other facilities that could help American war efforts.

Well that depends on so many factors it is far from a foregone conclusion like you are suggesting. Overreach is a thing, and there are countless examples in history where one side has snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by unwisely pushing too far too fast.

It would be a needless and silly own goal to loose warships or even carriers trying to hit Pearl and San Diego if between your fleets and land based A2AD assets, you can already effectively lock the USN out of the western pacific, and the ships you lost trying to hit Pearl/San Diego then gave the USN a chance to break back into the second and first island chains to threaten AR and/or China’s coast industrial base.

The goal for China isn’t to Red Dawn America, but rather to secure Taiwan and maybe also other first island chain islands being using in direct attack against China in the event of AR to fully shatter the first island chain and safeguard Taiwan and the mainland coast from attack.

Maybe they can spam cruise missiles at Pearl with H20s to keep the USN on the back foot, but San Diego would be wildly excessive.

Even if you want to go all out and hit San Diego, 093Bs are completely the wrong platform to use. The aforementioned drone arsenal subs and/or SSGNs would be far better assets for such long range strikes.
 

Biscuits

Major
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China has repeatedly made it clear that they're not interested in war nor in capturing territory.

Although individuals and pundits in China may believe that it is beneficial for China to use an American invasion as an excuse to permanently end both the imperial Japanese threat and right the wrongs of the end of ww2, which saw US being given an oversized role in denazifying Japan, that not only failed but ended up creating a more belligerent US, it must be admitted that this is far from China's official position.

As far as the official stance is considered, there will be no preemptive strikes, only vigilant observation of regional hostiles, and when they fire the first shot, China will defend itself.
 

tphuang

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And I never disputed that, the point I have been making throughout is that China’s military planning cannot depend on being able to throw the first punch and land a knock-out blow. That’s where the Japanese went wrong and China would be stupid to repeat that mistake

That very much depends on the war going according to China’s timetable and plans doesn’t it? If it’s the US that decides to initiate the war, you think they would do it at a time when most of their fleet is down and undergoing repairs and maintenance?

Again, unless you are talking about a Pearl Harbour 2.0 surprise attack (which seems to be basically what you are advocating), the war won’t just go from zero to fire all missiles with the snap of your fingers.

Realistically speaking, barring some massive unexpected freak event, there will be a lengthy period of build-up and escalating tensions on both sides before the first shot is fired. Just from a logistics POV, the PLAN has just as many, if not more of its fleet at port at any one time as the USN. Sure, the PLAN will have better spin-up times since their ships are at port waiting on orders in high readiness states rather than being on rest and repair break from long deployments, but it would still take time to get the ships and crews ready for deployment, which will be very obvious if the PLAN is making its whole fleet ready to put out to sea. And no, no major exercise would come close to the scale of activity that would happen in the event of active preparation for real AR.

One also need to remember that AR, above all else, will be a political decision, and American direct involvement is by no means guaranteed if it’s China that kicks things off.

From a purely tactical POV, it might make sense to do a surprise alpha strike, but from a strategic and political POV, that might not make sense since doing so would turn a possibility into a certainty.

The costs and consequences of a direct shooting war between the US and China would be so colossal, I think China will not fire the first shot against the Americans unless the US formally and blindingly commit to going to war over Taiwan in the event of AR first.

Instead I think the PLA will try to force the US to commit first, either by crossing a declared red line, or firing the first shot, and the US will do everything it can to resist tipping its hand prematurely. Eventually a point might be reached where China decides that it is a certainty that America will attack, thus there is no point in waiting, but the Americans will wish to stretch that time as long as possible. But the point is, from China’s POV, it has to approach its prep from a worst case scenario to be fully prepared, which involves having to fight the entire USN forward deployed fleet out at sea rather than hoping to catch a meaningful number of them at port.

That would be a massive tactical disadvantage for China, which is the whole point of strategic ambiguity for the US.

If they can and do catch principle USN surface combatants in port, great bonus. But they should not plan around it, never mind re-tasking critically important assets like 093Bs for such missions, because ships at port are so acutely vulnerable, you have far bigger problems if you need to do special preparation to hit them. That’s like saying J20s need to have a long range surface strike capability and that all J20s doing CAP missions should carry such ground attack munitions just in case they find F35s still on the ground. There are so many other assets and weapons that can and should be doing the surface strike missions that J20s really should not be wasting their time and combat potential for those missions unless and until you have so many J20s that air dominance is assured.

Well that depends on so many factors it is far from a foregone conclusion like you are suggesting. Overreach is a thing, and there are countless examples in history where one side has snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by unwisely pushing too far too fast.

It would be a needless and silly own goal to loose warships or even carriers trying to hit Pearl and San Diego if between your fleets and land based A2AD assets, you can already effectively lock the USN out of the western pacific, and the ships you lost trying to hit Pearl/San Diego then gave the USN a chance to break back into the second and first island chains to threaten AR and/or China’s coast industrial base.

The goal for China isn’t to Red Dawn America, but rather to secure Taiwan and maybe also other first island chain islands being using in direct attack against China in the event of AR to fully shatter the first island chain and safeguard Taiwan and the mainland coast from attack.

Maybe they can spam cruise missiles at Pearl with H20s to keep the USN on the back foot, but San Diego would be wildly excessive.

Even if you want to go all out and hit San Diego, 093Bs are completely the wrong platform to use. The aforementioned drone arsenal subs and/or SSGNs would be far better assets for such long range strikes.
What we are saying is that China should do no major visible buildup. It will normalize major exercises around the region so that it can initiate conflict on its terms when certain red line gets crossed and the other side wouldn't know for sure that something is coming.

You seem to have no concept of how much time USN or PLAN boats spend in the port or under repairs. US navy uses its fleet very excessively which leads to long downtimes after completion of mission. This is not a matter of luck. This is just regular reality. Stuff breaks down after 9 months missions around the world. Even aside from that, forward deployed operational fleet still spend good chunk of their time in port. Even for ships in the sea, you want to hit them when they are not prepared. Aside from hypersonic missiles being harder to intercept, they also give defender less time to move from their original spot and set up defense.

Why would hitting San Diego be excessive? US military will hit targets in China on the mainland. As such, PLA needs to be planning the same.

We do not know what 093B capabilities are. But if it can get into open ocean without being tailed and has a VLS module with 1500nm ASBM, then it should be used to attack US naval fleet that are getting worked up. Keep in mind that it will take over 40 days for US navy to prepare a fleet to come in Taiwan's aid. If you are PLA, you want to disrupt that process if you can.
 

tphuang

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China has repeatedly made it clear that they're not interested in war nor in capturing territory.

Although individuals and pundits in China may believe that it is beneficial for China to use an American invasion as an excuse to permanently end both the imperial Japanese threat and right the wrongs of the end of ww2, which saw US being given an oversized role in denazifying Japan, that not only failed but ended up creating a more belligerent US, it must be admitted that this is far from China's official position.

As far as the official stance is considered, there will be no preemptive strikes, only vigilant observation of regional hostiles, and when they fire the first shot, China will defend itself.
I have no idea what you are talking about. China should take all measures to avoid a real kinetic conflict. However, if it deems that its red line has been crossed or it is about to be attacked, it should definitely not wait for the attack to come. That first strike matters
 
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