PLA Strategy in a Taiwan Contingency

solarz

Brigadier
As it stands, the US will absolutely be providing Taiwan with ISR support in the event of a kinetic conflict between Beijing and Taipei . . .
...
What happens if things heat up, and the PLARF demolishes a SCIF occupied by both ROC and US personnel whose presence has been an open secret for decades, but has largely been concealed from public discourse? Will Uncle Sam even make a fuss about it in public?!

Russia has been blowing up American "trainers" left and right, and I haven't seen the US make a peep about it in the media.

ISR is nice and all, but you need the hardware to take action based on the intel. The PLA is unlikely to leave Taiwan with anything they can use to strike back.

The only question here is whether the US will fight China directly.
 

zyklon

Junior Member
Registered Member
Russia has been blowing up American "trainers" left and right, and I haven't seen the US make a peep about it in the media.

I wouldn't quite say "left and right." From what little I know, the French, British and Polish have all more likely than not sustained more casualties than the US in Ukraine, though it is what it is: at the end of the day "freedom isn't free."

Most Americans just don't know the price that is being paid for their freedom (whatever that actually may or may not mean).

ISR is nice and all, but you need the hardware to take action based on the intel. The PLA is unlikely to leave Taiwan with anything they can use to strike back.

The only question here is whether the US will fight China directly.

This is exactly why USG pax -- whether they're AIT, DoD, contractors or (nominally) something else -- may find themselves evacuated prior to the outbreak of hostilities between the PLA and indigenous forces intent on (what will most likely amount to futile) armed resistance.
 

Michael90

Junior Member
Registered Member
Russia has been blowing up American "trainers" left and right, and I haven't seen the US make a peep about it in the media.

ISR is nice and all, but you need the hardware to take action based on the intel. The PLA is unlikely to leave Taiwan with anything they can use to strike back.

The only question here is whether the US will fight China directly.
I think most members here seem to miss the point that Russia is not China. So US considerations towards China are completely different from Russia.
The US unanimously (both Democrats and republicans) consider China as their number 1 threat and they all agree the US should focus on countering China by all meansnecessary.Russia by contrast is just an irritant for them to be honest.
Even when the US pulled out of Afghanistan the US administration mentioned that one of the main reasons was to focus on their real current and future threat China.
If you watched the interview Biden gave as well just last year, he clearly stated that US will not intervene in Ukraine war whatsoever apart from providing some military and economic aid. However they clearly stated that in event of Taiwan invasion the US will intervene directly to help Taiwan SIMPLY BECAUSE THE US CONSIDERS CHINA THEIR NUMBER 1 THREAT NOT RUSSIA. Its sane policy under Trump who has actually picked the staunch anti China hawk Marco Rubio as secretary of state. That says it all.


So these are all things that should be taken into consideration by Chinese leadership so they don't miscalculate. They should be ready and expecting to fight the US in an event of Taïwan war. Expecting anything less is setting themselves up for failure. Better prepare for the worse and hope for the best.

Moreover, what happens even if there's a peaceful reunification a decade or more from now? What type of system will be adopted? What happens to the political parties on the island like KMT/DPP ? It seems to me the main unstable to reunification is mainly political actually. Funny enough KMT who was the main party who fled to govern Taiwan and was the main sworn enemy of CCP is now the one to be more friendly towards reunification or at least closed ties with the mainland. Seems its the new young party DPP that's the main instigator now. Lol Time really changes people and things.
 

Neurosmith

Junior Member
Registered Member
PR and diplomacy ain't bringing anything that your military power isn't able to do.

If you think that in AR, PLA would attempt amphibious landings with US forces waiting to strike I got a bridge for you.

Russian lesson is a clear one. If you go into war, you go decisively, not by half measures. US either has to credibly demonstrate that it won't intervene or PLA has to account for worse scenario and strike it


As for your comment of China fearing a US intervention. Dude, if China didn't fear and fought US forces in Korea when it was dirt poor and poorly equipped why do you think it fears US now..
I'll state this again: China wishes to maximize the chance of a successful Taiwan operation and minimize the risk of a larger and potentially-unpredictable conflict. The maximum chance of success depends on the United States staying out of the Taiwan scenario. The moment that China launches an initial attack on US forces is when the prospect of US non-interventionism goes out the window.

Preparing for the eventuality of US intervention is not tantamount to pre-empting it. You seem to be conflating the two concepts. The PLA could very well have built up the materiel, personnel, and strategy to fight the US, but there is no doubt a very clear line between preparing for that possibility versus instigating the very scenario China wishes to avoid.

I didn't say anything about fear; being prudent about US intervention is different from abandoning Taiwan altogether because of the possibility of US intervention.

Your problem is believing US can win a war with China and Chinese leadership is fearful of the US.
And the problem here is that one too many believe that the US is not capable of winning a large-scale war against China.

As it stands, the US will absolutely be providing Taiwan with ISR support in the event of a kinetic conflict between Beijing and Taipei . . . at least until the relevant USG personnel on assignment in Taiwan are evacuated and/or the infrastructure they depend on for ongoing operations are too degraded to function due to cyber and/or kinetic warfare.

Not too sure why more people aren't aware or mindful of this, but the US has been collecting intelligence, especially SIGINT, on Mainland China from Taiwan since the 1950s, if not the 1940s. The associated infrastructure has dwindled, at least visibly, since the 1970s due to the normalization of relations between Washington and Beijing, but why would Washington or Taipei let it all go?

US ISR support to Taiwan has been ongoing for decades, and is in all likelihood happening right now as we speak, and is probably 24/7 as it is with a lot of SIGINT and ELINT mission sets. Granted, Uncle Sam doesn't make an effort to publicize it.

What happens if things heat up, and the PLARF demolishes a SCIF occupied by both ROC and US personnel whose presence has been an open secret for decades, but has largely been concealed from public discourse? Will Uncle Sam even make a fuss about it in public?!

The point I'm trying to make is that when it comes to any future kinetic conflict across the Taiwan Strait, there are going to be grey zones for Beijing and Washington.
There will certainly be grey zones in such a conflict and situations wherein both parties come to a mutual understanding to not escalate further. If Iran and Israel can do it, so can the US and China.

But that wasn't my main argument. Some are suggesting that China launch a surprise attack on US bases and assets in the Pacific in the opening hours of a Taiwan conflict; this would clearly be nothing short of a declaration of war against the US and certainly not a "grey zone" action. The scenario you described stems from escalatory actions & counter-actions, not a blitzkrieg that sets off a whole new war in motion.

I don't think the Chinese military would even need to preemptively attack the US military. The US military would have to fire the first shots in a war with China. Prior to actual conflict, the military buildup in the Western Pacific would ensure that China has eyes and ears everywhere you look, including satellites, UAVs, USVs, UUVs, and of the Chinese merchant marine. It wouldn't be like during the Cold War where the Soviets had great difficulties tracking American CSGs. If the US is in the Western Pacific or SCS, China will know where they are all the time. If the US is going to move on China, it will have to begin by making the Chinese military as blind and deaf as possible by shooting down satellites and UAVs and of course sinking every USV and UUV it finds in the area. It will also have to start murdering Chinese fishermen because it will not be able to tell if that fishing boat sitting on the horizon able to see its CSG is civilian or merchant marine. And so they will all have to die. That would be the sure sign the US (and likely Japan) has committed to the fight and is going in with all its gathered CSGs. In which case China has all the casus belli it needs to immediately counterattack US forces according to whatever plan it has already laid out. And if the US is serious about implementing its Hellscape plan in the event of a Taiwanese invasion by China, it's basically yet another means of declaration that the US will fight China before it even actually joins the fight with the bulk of its forces.
I think we are all in agreement that China would respond militarily if the US intervened in a Taiwan scenario with kinetic means. Obviously, the degree to which China responds would most likely be commensurate with the level of US involvement. And I would agree with your premise that any US intervention in a Taiwan conflict would have to start with US-initiated attacks.

The key part of your scenario is that the US initiates the attacks rather than China doing so against the US.
 

Neurosmith

Junior Member
Registered Member
You guys are making this a little more complicated than it really is!

Trump's approach to negotiations tends to be pretty straight forward: he usually presents 2-3 options, 1 that more or less represents what he wishes to achieve, and 1-2 alternatives that are completely unacceptable, if not outright extreme to the counterparty.

This has been Trump's modus operandi since his Art of the Deal days, and is in fact more or less the approach he recommended in said book.

To put it quite simply: the US State Department updated their verbiage on Taiwan so Trump can threaten to support de jure independence for Taiwan as a source of (perceived) leverage in negotiations with Xi (in all likelihood for a grand bargain that Trump believes will significantly contribute to his presidential legacy).

State's updated verbiage is just fluff in preparation for the upcoming face to face meeting between Trump and Xi.
If this is true, he's tried this strategy before to no avail. View attachment 145745
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Great find; this is likely the reasoning behind the change in statement. It's akin to the "US will take over Gaza" spiel; this is all in preparation for face-to-face negotiations.
 

GOODTREE

Junior Member
Registered Member

Chinese military effectively deals with Canadian warship's transit through Taiwan Strait

Eastern Theater spokesman Colonel Li Xi said that on February 16, the Canadian frigate “Ottawa” sailed through the Taiwan Strait and deliberately hyped up the event. The Chinese People's Liberation Army Eastern Theater deployed naval and air forces to to monitor and remain on high alert throughout the Canadian vessel’s passage, effectively handling the situation. The Canadian side's remarks distort legal principles and mislead public perception, while its actions deliberately create disturbances and undermine peace and stability in the Taiwan Strait. The forces of the Eastern Theater Command remain on high alert at all times and will resolutely counter any threats and provocations.

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Can't go wrong this time.( My translation)
 

GulfLander

Captain
Registered Member

Chinese military effectively deals with Canadian warship's transit through Taiwan Strait

Eastern Theater spokesman Colonel Li Xi said that on February 16, the Canadian frigate “Ottawa” sailed through the Taiwan Strait and deliberately hyped up the event. The Chinese People's Liberation Army Eastern Theater deployed naval and air forces to to monitor and remain on high alert throughout the Canadian vessel’s passage, effectively handling the situation. The Canadian side's remarks distort legal principles and mislead public perception, while its actions deliberately create disturbances and undermine peace and stability in the Taiwan Strait. The forces of the Eastern Theater Command remain on high alert at all times and will resolutely counter any threats and provocations.

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——————
Can't go wrong this time.( My translation)
They still do that even after Trump threaten tariff vs Canada?
 

00CuriousObserver

Junior Member
Registered Member
I'll state this again: China wishes to maximize the chance of a successful Taiwan operation and minimize the risk of a larger and potentially-unpredictable conflict. The maximum chance of success depends on the United States staying out of the Taiwan scenario. The moment that China launches an initial attack on US forces is when the prospect of US non-interventionism goes out the window.

Preparing for the eventuality of US intervention is not tantamount to pre-empting it. You seem to be conflating the two concepts. The PLA could very well have built up the materiel, personnel, and strategy to fight the US, but there is no doubt a very clear line between preparing for that possibility versus instigating the very scenario China wishes to avoid.

I didn't say anything about fear; being prudent about US intervention is different from abandoning Taiwan altogether because of the possibility of US intervention.


And the problem here is that one too many believe that the US is not capable of winning a large-scale war against China.


There will certainly be grey zones in such a conflict and situations wherein both parties come to a mutual understanding to not escalate further. If Iran and Israel can do it, so can the US and China.

But that wasn't my main argument. Some are suggesting that China launch a surprise attack on US bases and assets in the Pacific in the opening hours of a Taiwan conflict; this would clearly be nothing short of a declaration of war against the US and certainly not a "grey zone" action. The scenario you described stems from escalatory actions & counter-actions, not a blitzkrieg that sets off a whole new war in motion.


I think we are all in agreement that China would respond militarily if the US intervened in a Taiwan scenario with kinetic means. Obviously, the degree to which China responds would most likely be commensurate with the level of US involvement. And I would agree with your premise that any US intervention in a Taiwan conflict would have to start with US-initiated attacks.

The key part of your scenario is that the US initiates the attacks rather than China doing so against the US.

Agreed with much of what's written here. The fact that China wants to minimize the risk of a greater conflict isn't emphasized enough here imo.

One thing, however: "The PLA could very well have built up the materiel, personnel, and strategy to fight the US" is an understatement. The PLA needs to match the US in much of the escalation ladder, and the timeline for achieving this feat is on the scale of decades. We're clearly not at that point, and until we are, preparing for the eventuality of US intervention essentially means pre-empting it, which is why you see this sentiment so often.
 

Neurosmith

Junior Member
Registered Member
Agreed with much of what's written here. The fact that China wants to minimize the risk of a greater conflict isn't emphasized enough here imo.

One thing, however: "The PLA could very well have built up the materiel, personnel, and strategy to fight the US" is an understatement. The PLA needs to match the US in much of the escalation ladder, and the timeline for achieving this feat is on the scale of decades. We're clearly not at that point, and until we are, preparing for the eventuality of US intervention essentially means pre-empting it, which is why you see this sentiment so often.
I can see why some might think this way; after all a surprise attack on US forces might (transiently) nullify whatever numerical or technological advantage US Pacific forces might have at the moment. But "transiently" is the operative word here. Dragging a larger enemy into a conflict is just about the worst decision that China could make; especially if she is not on par with the US on military terms.

Plus, much of what China has prepared has a significant deterrent factor; the PLA does not need to match the US military toe-to-toe to deter intervention (much like how the US has not directly involved itself in the Ukraine War). This deterrence is shattered the moment China goes to war with the US following an attack on its assets in the Pacific.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Agreed with much of what's written here. The fact that China wants to minimize the risk of a greater conflict isn't emphasized enough here imo.

One thing, however: "The PLA could very well have built up the materiel, personnel, and strategy to fight the US" is an understatement. The PLA needs to match the US in much of the escalation ladder, and the timeline for achieving this feat is on the scale of decades. We're clearly not at that point, and until we are, preparing for the eventuality of US intervention essentially means pre-empting it, which is why you see this sentiment so often.
Deadline of 2027 on the PLA to have the capability and capacity to invade Taiwan if ordered, even if US and pets intervene.
 
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