PLA Strategy in a Taiwan Contingency

antiterror13

Brigadier
If Japan really wants to prepare for war with China, then they really should be spending way more.

For example, look at Polish military spending:

2021: 2.2% of GDP
2025: around 4.7% of GDP

That is military spending increasing by more than 2x.

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In comparison, in 2022, Japan announced a doubling of military spending from 1% to 2%.
But in 2025, they'll only be at 1.5% of GDP. This is still less than the Chinese level.

For Japan's defence budget, remember that the increase is in Yen which has devalued greatly from around 100 per USD to now 150, ~50% devaluation. In US$, hardly any increase. Unlike China, most Japanese high tech weapon systems are imported from the US which is of course in US$, so US$ is more relevant to Japan's defence spending

In 2024 Japan's defence is $55B from around US$4.1T nominal GDP, roughly 1.4% GDP
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Ringsword

Junior Member
Registered Member

Japan today is very different.

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Even if it was possible to conquer Japan, is it worth the cost? I don't think so

That means China has to live with Japan.

So what should China's ultimate objective be with regards to Japan?

If Japan ditches the US alliance and switches to China, I think China should welcome this as continuing to hold a grudge would be counterproductive
I actually don't mind living alongside them ....provide the innate contempt,hostility /predaciousness is gone and like I and others said,Japan and China of today is most certainly not 1937 with the likes of the Kwantung Army Gen.Kanji Ishiwara, Col.Seshiro Itagaki etc fomenting trouble/war in Manchuria along with Warlords etc and the Japanese having their way economically/militarily/politically in China( China as Japan's personal hunting preserve as the book"Before Pearl Harbour by Dorn put it")since Boxer Rebellion when Japan was part of the 8 countries Alliance against China.Today-no fucking way-and even the old evil LDP's and their ilk ,old monsters facing old age death and Hell fapping to memories of rape and murder,looting galore in China -one wrong move and China will simply incinerate Japanese en masse and occupy it later when disease,starvation,wounds kill off all the survivors-no Jap heroic -Falling Chryssanthemums bullshit-Battle for Okinawa writ large.And also no Korean war scenario where Japan was rebuilt as rear base,brothel,R&R for U.S and its allies while fighting China for Taiwan in a war of bleeding attrition - very complex and very simple if you can "handle" USA by China's own strength the Japs will be bowing so low their fucking heads will hit the ground.
 
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Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Hey I am all for regional peace and world peace. But Japan is not the victim here.

This is the thread where we discuss (to put it mildly) Japan helps US to attack China over Taiwan, not the other way around. If Japan absolutely have no intention to help US to attack the PLA, I am sure the Japanese people and the government would make that clear to the United States and allow no room for misunderstanding. That is not the world we live in.

In our version of the universe, Japan is the aggressor not the victim. We debate the appropriate amount of retaliation PLA must apply onto Japan's main islands, not just Okinawa. Then there is another outcome that China loses the war to Japan-US coalition. Then this region will have at least 100 years of non stop fighting. Nuclear war isn't impossible.

If Japan is rational and sane, you need to do something explicitly toward the US, and, to Taiwan's Lai gov, so nobody will misjudge the situation that is approaching us in a few years.
Japan has a population of 124 million. China has the tech/training capability to blockade Japan, but to actually defeat them will take years. The saving grace is that the ability of Japan to mobilise is questionable, they're not Ukraine that has inherited a lot of Soviet weapons and more importantly the Soviet draft system. And that Japan's indigenous air defense is rather limited, without US boost, it is worse than Ukraine's, let alone Russia's (despite Japanese gdp being near Russia level).

It is quite within reach for the current air force/navy to conduct a heavy air campaign over Japan, at least in the Kyushu and Hokkaido islands.

In my view, rather than showing the Japanese counteroffensive as China's vengeance on all of Japan, it is better to appeal to the average civilian by casting that China wishes to be friends with average Japanese, but the tyrannical LDP which has hijacked the government brought the JSDF into conflict with China - against the wishes of the people. Therefore China's air campaign should focus on military targets and select leadership only, no attacks with the intent of clearing out the Japanese civilian population.

Only if Japan successfully mass mobilises and it's clear they will fight to the last person for the sake of the US invasion operation should China switch to annihilation tactics.

I have in the past written about the possibility to adopt Russian ZVO recruitment methods to sustain a large, fully voluntary force. If the goal is full counterinvasion of Japan, it will be necessary to massively increase the amounts of boots on the ground. Rather than using the mobilisation of drafted soldiers, it is interesting to use the ZVO methods to create an independent "territorial defense" (more like territorial offense or Wagner) that will be much cheaper to equip than the proper PLAGF, employ foreigners and even say North Koreans, and be paid mainly with sign up bonuses, plunder and bounties.

Basically, the PLAGF will conduct difficult and decisive battles, while the 2nd line mercenary army will police occupied territory and engage in Ukrainian style fpv supported meat assaults against already severely weakened JSDF ground units.

The reason is twofold:

1. to avoid sending drafted soldiers.

2. to with full potential unleash China's civilian side industry and "small" weapons entrepreneurs, which can create massive amounts of equipment, but whose quality and standardization often will not meet PLA standards. Think turtle tanks, robodogs with flamethrowers etc.

I'll estimate it's possible to get 1-3 million such 2nd line infantry on a fairly short notice, which will then be shipped to Japan with China's massive merchant marine fleet.
 

tygyg1111

Captain
Registered Member
Okay so if some faction in Japan's government wanted to do this, what is the motive?

You're saying that 90% of Japanese hate China, if so, there should be no recruitment problems or morale issues or any need for strategic deception to say "US did it". Because if Japan is so ready and raring to fight China, why would they pursue this arrangement to blame US for using Kadena? They should just attack China with every Japanese airbase and ship at once, it would have a higher chance of doing something than just letting US take off with a few planes like a thief in the night from Kadena.

Well what you wrote only illustrates more the whiffling and waffling Japan had continously had regarding whether to support American territorial aggression.

It doesn't sound like preparing for war. It sounds like preparing for passing the blame to US and giving Japan an out.

Let's say the secret agreement works, USAF units head to support the US invasion. China's first move won't be to bomb hospitals in Tokyo or some other outrageous act. They'll shoot down the planes from Kadena and raze Kadena airfield itself to the ground first.

Then what? Japan government will mobilise whole Japanese society for revenge over the lives of 3000 loud mouthed foreigners? Is that truly the best way to mobilise Japan?

Or will Japan (which as you remember, it's a secret agreement) simply say "we had no idea Americans would betray us by attacking you from our territory! We're now telling the Americans to leave for this blatant betrayal of trust, so don't attack us!".

It's a survey made by white house bots.
I think you are a little too soft on Japan given the superficial and cultural likenesses. If the power balance were to change for the worse, you would immediately see the same people that are now calling for peace, calling for more overt support for Taiwan. Japan has always assessed the direction of the wind and settled with who they see as the stronger side, whilst at the same time harboring their own ambitions. Their true selves only come out when they feel they have a winning hand - they're absolutely not to be trusted.

For Japan to be locked under Chinese dominion (and love it) they need to be dealt with an overwhelming amount of devastation, enough to convince all levels of society to the very core of their bones that there was, is, and will be no chance to dislodge China from their necks. The exact amount and type of devastation needs to be considered, and should be include destruction of virtually all their military assets (esp. symbolic warships) and facilities, plus any historical sites, monuments, museums, media centers and other areas that glorify Japanese nationalism. A low number of power / water / sewage treatment plants in selected residential areas also should be made inoperable to send a message - "here's how hard we can make it for you, however we won't for now. If you fuck up, you know what's coming". Building new, better Chinese facilities after a period of good behavior will instill a sense of colonial hierarchy, which is one of the foundation stones for the permanent pacification of Japan, whom we should still consider 倭寇 until wholly assimilated.

Post event, governance, education and media of the four main islands should be split to introduce diverging views and outlooks, such that 50-100 years down the track, they regard themselves like the Okinawans see themselves relative to Japan today. That is, a separate identity with no strong attachment. This would set the stage for allowing the eventual incorporation of various "eastern islands ethnic minorities" as citizens into China, and pave the way for each of their 'home islands' to be eventually recognized as a part of China.
 

Ringsword

Junior Member
Registered Member
I think you are a little too soft on Japan given the superficial and cultural likenesses. If the power balance were to change for the worse, you would immediately see the same people that are now calling for peace, calling for more overt support for Taiwan. Japan has always assessed the direction of the wind and settled with who they see as the stronger side, whilst at the same time harboring their own ambitions. Their true selves only come out when they feel they have a winning hand - they're absolutely not to be trusted.

For Japan to be locked under Chinese dominion (and love it) they need to be dealt with an overwhelming amount of devastation, enough to convince all levels of society to the very core of their bones that there was, is, and will be no chance to dislodge China from their necks. The exact amount and type of devastation needs to be considered, and should be include destruction of virtually all their military assets (esp. symbolic warships) and facilities, plus any historical sites, monuments, museums, media centers and other areas that glorify Japanese nationalism. A low number of power / water / sewage treatment plants in selected residential areas also should be made inoperable to send a message - "here's how hard we can make it for you, however we won't for now. If you fuck up, you know what's coming". Building new, better Chinese facilities after a period of good behavior will instill a sense of colonial hierarchy, which is one of the foundation stones for the permanent pacification of Japan, whom we should still consider 倭寇 until wholly assimilated.

Post event, governance, education and media of the four main islands should be split to introduce diverging views and outlooks, such that 50-100 years down the track, they regard themselves like the Okinawans see themselves relative to Japan today. That is, a separate identity with no strong attachment. This would set the stage for allowing the eventual incorporation of various "eastern islands ethnic minorities" as citizens into China, and pave the way for each of their 'home islands' to be eventually recognized as a part of China.
In Japanese,"ura" the inner heart and "omote",the outward public face.Explains everything and your right overwhelming force applied judiciously is the only way to get to their "ura". and sanitize it like Fatman &Littleboy.As an example the orphaned children of the Japanese in then Manchuria were often rescued and adopted by Chinese peasants/villagers who raised and loved them as their own.The Japanese historically murdered,raped,tortured our children even for fun -WW2 Nanking was just a very small sample of this evil-it was everywhere/everday.Power dynamic?the more helpless you are the more bestially evil "ura" the Japanese become.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
I think you are a little too soft on Japan given the superficial and cultural likenesses. If the power balance were to change for the worse, you would immediately see the same people that are now calling for peace, calling for more overt support for Taiwan. Japan has always assessed the direction of the wind and settled with who they see as the stronger side, whilst at the same time harboring their own ambitions. Their true selves only come out when they feel they have a winning hand - they're absolutely not to be trusted.
Your assessment of Japan is correct, but the reason I come off as soft is because there is no conceivable situation where the power balance would flip but rather it will just accelerate to be more lopsided in China's favor. So we are left with the Japan that assess the situation and sees US as more vulnerable, hence the calling for "peace" right now.
For Japan to be locked under Chinese dominion (and love it) they need to be dealt with an overwhelming amount of devastation, enough to convince all levels of society to the very core of their bones that there was, is, and will be no chance to dislodge China from their necks. The exact amount and type of devastation needs to be considered, and should be include destruction of virtually all their military assets (esp. symbolic warships) and facilities, plus any historical sites, monuments, museums, media centers and other areas that glorify Japanese nationalism. A low number of power / water / sewage treatment plants in selected residential areas also should be made inoperable to send a message - "here's how hard we can make it for you, however we won't for now. If you fuck up, you know what's coming". Building new, better Chinese facilities after a period of good behavior will instill a sense of colonial hierarchy, which is one of the foundation stones for the permanent pacification of Japan, whom we should still consider 倭寇 until wholly assimilated.

Post event, governance, education and media of the four main islands should be split to introduce diverging views and outlooks, such that 50-100 years down the track, they regard themselves like the Okinawans see themselves relative to Japan today. That is, a separate identity with no strong attachment. This would set the stage for allowing the eventual incorporation of various "eastern islands ethnic minorities" as citizens into China, and pave the way for each of their 'home islands' to be eventually recognized as a part of China.
A sort of humanitarian friendly approach to war will always be better as long as there are human-like people left in Japan and they don't all embrace orc-like behavior and try to rush into Taiwan or something like that.

I think similar to the south Koreans, it is possible to construct a scenario based on half truth that it is the fault of a "right wing, dictator, out of touch" government starting hostility and "deceiving" "elements" of the military to "start a war to distract from their own failures". Under this narrative, China doesn't have to wage a campaign of annihilation across the 124 million population of Japan, only defeat the "JSDF that are loyal to the right wing dictator's plan", then negotiate with the "opposition" to secure China friendly interests.

The less fighting, the more easy a future campaign to return Japan into the Sinosphere will be.
 

kurutoga

Junior Member
Registered Member
Japan has a population of 124 million. China has the tech/training capability to blockade Japan, but to actually defeat them will take years. The saving grace is that the ability of Japan to mobilise is questionable, they're not Ukraine that has inherited a lot of Soviet weapons and more importantly the Soviet draft system. And that Japan's indigenous air defense is rather limited, without US boost, it is worse than Ukraine's, let alone Russia's (despite Japanese gdp being near Russia level).

It is quite within reach for the current air force/navy to conduct a heavy air campaign over Japan, at least in the Kyushu and Hokkaido islands.

In my view, rather than showing the Japanese counteroffensive as China's vengeance on all of Japan, it is better to appeal to the average civilian by casting that China wishes to be friends with average Japanese, but the tyrannical LDP which has hijacked the government brought the JSDF into conflict with China - against the wishes of the people. Therefore China's air campaign should focus on military targets and select leadership only, no attacks with the intent of clearing out the Japanese civilian population.

Only if Japan successfully mass mobilises and it's clear they will fight to the last person for the sake of the US invasion operation should China switch to annihilation tactics.

I have in the past written about the possibility to adopt Russian ZVO recruitment methods to sustain a large, fully voluntary force. If the goal is full counterinvasion of Japan, it will be necessary to massively increase the amounts of boots on the ground. Rather than using the mobilisation of drafted soldiers, it is interesting to use the ZVO methods to create an independent "territorial defense" (more like territorial offense or Wagner) that will be much cheaper to equip than the proper PLAGF, employ foreigners and even say North Koreans, and be paid mainly with sign up bonuses, plunder and bounties.

Basically, the PLAGF will conduct difficult and decisive battles, while the 2nd line mercenary army will police occupied territory and engage in Ukrainian style fpv supported meat assaults against already severely weakened JSDF ground units.

The reason is twofold:

1. to avoid sending drafted soldiers.

2. to with full potential unleash China's civilian side industry and "small" weapons entrepreneurs, which can create massive amounts of equipment, but whose quality and standardization often will not meet PLA standards. Think turtle tanks, robodogs with flamethrowers etc.

I'll estimate it's possible to get 1-3 million such 2nd line infantry on a fairly short notice, which will then be shipped to Japan with China's massive merchant marine fleet.

I don't even know how you can bullshit this far. There is no Ukraine. Japan would invade Chinese land. In the case of Japan helping US to invade China/Taiwan:
  • Japan is the invader, the aggressor, the imperialists, just like in 1931 and 1937
  • Naruhito is Hirohito. He will end up as a class A war criminal and this time there is no Douglas MacArthur to save his ass
  • Then Japanese PM will be compared to Hideki Tojo. Whoever that is will be hang after a war crime trial
  • In a war defending homeland from a Japanese invasion, guess what, nuclear weapon use is justified
No one cares how the Japanese people will cope. For the last time, Japanese are the invader, not the victims. You should feel luck you can survive the war you started.
  • I think "the Japanese fantasy of being attacked thus Japanese are war victims" is a mental disease. Cut it off. Or seek professional help.
 
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Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
I don't even know how you can bullshit this far. There is no Ukraine. Japan would invade Chinese land. In the case of Japan helping US to invade China/Taiwan:
  • Japan is the invader, the aggressor, the imperialists, just like in 1931 and 1937
  • Naruhito is Hirohito. He will end up as a class A war criminal and this time there is no Douglas MacArthur to save his ass
  • Then Japanese PM will be compared to Hideki Tojo. Whoever that is will be hang after a war crime trial
  • In a war defending homeland from a Japanese invasion, guess what, nuclear weapon use is justified
Justified and the best strategy is not the same thing. Because Japan is the aggressor, China is justified in killing every person able to wield weapons in Japan, but this is not the most efficient or realistic manner to achieve the return of Japan into China's world order.

You can spare me the rhetoric ideas because I'm only interested here to discuss what ideas will give highest benefit/cost ratio, not about moral injury.
No one cares how the Japanese people will cope. For the last time, Japanese are the invader, not the victims. You should feel luck you can survive the war you started.
You think Chinese soldiers on the ground will not care if they have to spend years killing Japanese partisans vs a quick war where China exploits the weaknesses of the Japanese government and the soldiers can go home to their families? Or maybe push on to secure more territory beyond Japan?

In fact I'm also onboard with the idea to cleanse Japan inch by inch, but it should only be started if it's clear there's no other alternative (if the Japanese population at large decides they will fight to the last person for the US invasion).

And in that case, what I suggested is an idea with which China can avoid the pitfall of using drafted soldiers. I don't give a shit if the idea is originally from our allies the Russians and that the Russians are the aggressors in their conflict. If we send the army to Japan, we will de facto also be on foreign soil. The important part is we win with as little morale, manpower and equipment loss as possible. And using cash driven volunteers, NK, Russians along with crowdfunded equipment to support the PLA regulars rather than sending draftees = good way of reducing losses and saving costs for the PLA to keep fighting where it can do the most work.
  • I think "the Japanese fantasy of being attacked thus Japanese are war victims" is a mental disease. Cut it off. Or seek professional help.
Learn to read.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
In the event of AR, if the role of Japan was limited to providing bases and supplies for the US, *and* provided the US does not directly attack the Mainland, I believe the cost/benefit analysis favors NOT attacking Japan.

Japan is basically a bigger, farther version of Taiwan. It would make no sense for the PLA to divert resources to fight Japan when said resources could be used to take Taiwan.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
In the event of AR, if the role of Japan was limited to providing bases and supplies for the US, *and* provided the US does not directly attack the Mainland, I believe the cost/benefit analysis favors NOT attacking Japan.

Japan is basically a bigger, farther version of Taiwan. It would make no sense for the PLA to divert resources to fight Japan when said resources could be used to take Taiwan.
Taiwan Island is nothing. Nothing that can’t be taken care of with 10k piston-based cruise missiles. Japan may require 10 times that amount, still well within China Inc’s capabilities.

Edit: it is important to knock out all infrastructures in Japan so they can’t be used to support the American and its vassals’ forces. For example, bomb all crude oil depots, refineries, airports, seaports and power plants so no bombers/fighters/aerial tankers can take off from Japan. That alone takes vast majority of the US Air Force out of the fight.
Also American and its vassals’ naval vessels can’t be refueled at Japan nor have their weapons replenished. They would have to go back much further or get refueled at sea which American capacities are very limited.
 
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