PLA Strategy in a Taiwan Contingency

i.e.

Senior Member
and STILL

I do not understand why

1) "china" not being "free" to the degree that others like it to be, forfeit its right to sovereignty,

and

2) that a "free china" will cease to pursue its basic interest by either removal of intent or capability.

the first part, seems to be on extremely shallow ethical or moral grounds.

and second part, seems either based on completely wishful thinking or basically presume that the process of "freeing china" will gut china's military-industrial capability much as "freeing Russia" has gutted Russia's... which is more realistic but bit nasty in term of hiding geopolitical powerplay in term of a "what's best for the chinese" poison pill.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
and STILL

I do not understand why

1) "china" not being "free" to the degree that others like it to be, forfeit its right to sovereignty,

and

2) that a "free china" will cease to pursue its basic interest by either removal of intent or capability.

the first part, seems to be on extremely shallow ethical or moral grounds.

and second part, seems either based on completely wishful thinking or basically presume that the process of "freeing china" will gut china's military-industrial capability much as "freeing Russia" has gutted Russia's... which is more realistic but bit nasty in term of hiding geopolitical powerplay in term of a "what's best for the chinese" poison pill.

Because relevancy is all too important. Think of it as a king or modern day CEO trying to justify his rule over his subjects or employees even though any of his/her subjects can do the same job equally well.
 

i.e.

Senior Member
When's the last time any one of us ignored history and got away with it successfully?
In regards to the history comment, I sometimes think time is rewinding itself. US reminds me of a modern Roman Empire, while China reminds me of Han; both share much similar traits in many aspects, which is also a warning light for both nations of where their fate lies.

The key is know when to stop. Napolean didn't after Austerlitz and British thought they could hold on to India even after they lost their industrial lead. Hannibal Barca was a brilliant tacticans but he mis-read Romans (his army can not sack Rome and Rome will not politically surrender and it will still have man-power and allies to fight on). and Mongols do not know how to govern only know how to conquer.
 
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i.e.

Senior Member
Because relevancy is all too important. Think of it as a king or modern day CEO trying to justify his rule over his subjects or employees even though any of his/her subjects can do the same job equally well.

No one has challenged these assumptions, or dare to challenge that assumption aloud. les the moral high grounds got lost.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
How does one's degree of "individual freedom" forfeit one's sovereignty is beyond my understanding. or does people believe a "free" china necessarily means a china that will give up pursuit of its core interests? either by removal of capability or intent?
Of course it does not mean an end to soveriegnty or giving up true "core" interests. It just makes their search for them more palatable to other nations whose basis is on that individual freedom and the free market.

This global ideological end-of-history nonsense has got to stop.
No nonsense. If it had to stop, there never would have been a United States...World War II would have been lost to Emperial and fascist forces...etc., etc.

Making an opinionated comment, as I was careful to point out, that individual liberty on the rise in Mainland China (which I believe it is and will be) is a good thing for cross strait relationships has nothing to do with nonsense or the end of history...only with one potential path history might take forward.

I am afraid that there are so many people in this world who think they can control through their military might the tide of history, they are playing with forces they barely comprehend here.
No one has indicated that such control need, or ought to be exerted. In fact, quite the contrary. I hope it does not have to be. But history itself tells us sometime it does. I hope and pray in this case that is not so. In my estimation, one natural couse of history can be that people strive for more individual freedom and to control their own personal destiny. Will that happen? I hope so, but cannot tell for sure. Can that course be a natural part of the mainland and Taiwan coming back together...of course it could.

...and I hope it will.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
The US forces of the 7th fleet and US Air Force assets in the area would be enough, IMHO, to blunt an attack by China against Taiwan. Certainly not enough to defeat China and all of her military...but that is not what they would have to do.

The PLA, PLAN and PLAAF will not and cannot commit all of their forces to that one fight. There are too many other borders to protect and other potential threats and interests that cannot be ignored.

All of China's other potential threats are land based, and the PLA is strong enough to hold their own long enough for air power to be diverted if another threat presents itself.

If Beijing commits to using force to re-take Taiwan, then all other consideration would come a distinct second.

In terms of the air force and navy, you can expect pretty much all of their remotely competitive modern assets to be made available if necessary.

I think you still do not understand just how important Taiwan is to China. Just as the US people would never stand another power to launch a sneak attack against them and get away with it, the Chinese people will never stand another piece of Chinese territory to be broken away by a foreign power using military force.

As far as America would be prepared to go if China launched a Japanese style sneak attack, expect the Chinese people to be willing to go further over Taiwan.

The US would simply have to keep China from gaining air superiority over Taiwan until more and more US forces arrive in theater from the 3rd fleet, and from the US mainland...and I believe, short of a massive pre-emptive attack which disabled Guam and the carrier force of the 7th fleet all at once, that the US would be able to do so.

What you would end up with is a lot of US aircraft from Guam and other bases...even from the US with B-1s and B-2s, several carrier groups (3-4 once the US got its forces arrayed), and a lot of submarines ensuring that the Island was not invaded.

These forces would prevent air superiority being achieved by the PRC and then would engage in a war of attrition against Chinese airbases in the vicinity of Taiwan that were launching strikes against Taiwan. I do not believe however that the US would venture at all onto Chinese soil with personnel...and would only go so deep into the PRC with air attacks, and principally against air bases and launch sites for ballistic missiles.

What you do not seem to be taking account is how the PLA would respond to such direct military intervention by the US, especially at such an early stage.

If the US got involved with the forces as deployed without making a significant build up first, then the entire emphasis of the PLA operation will instantly change from 'take Taiwan ASAP' to 'cause as much damage to US forces as possible'.

I have no idea why you are so fixated with the idea that the PLA would only be able to land heavy blows against Guam and USN assets if they launched a surprise pre-emptive attack.

Firstly, as I have already pointed out in my last post, in this day and age, it would simply be impossible for anyone, even the USAF, to launch an operation on the scale of what would be needed to devastate Guam in secret, across the distances involved without giving the game away.

Secondly, the PLA never plan for the best case scenario. They always plan for the worst and then make it a little worse for good measure.

When they are drawing up attack plans against Guam or USN CSGs, they would draw those plans and allocate resources based on the assumption that those bases and fleets are fully expecting the attack.

There would be significant loss on each side.

How it went from there is anybody's guess. Would the US have the will to mantian such a posture for very long? Depends on how the conflict started, the US losses, and the percieved intentions of the PRC by the US public. All of those would play on US staying power and what politicians were willing to keep on with.

Indeed, but my point has always been that if the US got directly involved pre-maturely, it would present the PLA with to opportunity to do the one thing proven time and time again to be the most effective means to turning the US public and politician against a war of choice - massive US casualties.

Remember that the whole rationale for the PLA to have to rush and take the island ASAP is so that they can fully control Taiwan before the US gets involved.

But if the US is already involved, then the emphasis would shift correspondingly to knocking the US out of the fight by causing far more casualties for the US than their public can stomach.

All of the other things would be influencing factors, but all of the others combined does not come close to how important US losses would influence US willingness to continue a war of choice.

Even if massive initial losses does not prompt the US to re-think their involvement, it should at the very least make them re-think their strategy and be far more cautious, which would give the PLA much more time and opportunity to take Taiwan than if they tried to weather US attacks.

Similiar, and probably other circumstances and conditions would play to...

No my friend, it would be a colossal mistake for the US to think that China would view Taiwan as a war of choice as the US does. For China, Taiwan is a matter of principle, of the very survival of the CCP itself, as if there is one thing that is almost guaranteed to cause the people and military of China to turn against the CCP, is if they 'lost' Taiwan.

Once committed, the Chinese will not back down until they have taken Taiwan no matter the cost. The sooner the US realises this simple fact, the fewer lives might be lost.

I for one hope it never happens, and short of something pushing it to that brink, do not believe it will.

You are far from along there mate. ;)

It is a strong blocking force. Much, much more capable than a picket,and with a much different role.

It is not a trip wire, it is not a early warning system. It is a force designed to be strong enough to prevent an opposing force from projecting sufficent strength beyond its borders to win the fighte before more US or allied forces arrive in theater.

Well we will just have to disagree on that one.

I do not think the US forces in the western pacific are strong enough to carry out the blocking role you envisaged. It is probably strong enough to block the PLAN from pushing past the second or third island chains, but then the PLAN has never had much interest in going that far.

In terms of a 1st island chain conflict like Taiwan, that force is ill placed (Guam and the vast majority of bases in Japan are much further from Taiwan than it is to the mainland) and too few in numbers to withstand the full might of the PLA, as it would be brought to bare if the US was foolish enough to gift wrap such a golden opportunity for the PLA to have the best realistic chance of inflicting the kind of losses that would give the US serious pause to re-consider their continued involvement in such a conflict.
 
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i.e.

Senior Member
Of course it does not mean an end to soveriegnty or giving up true "core" interests. It just makes their search for them more palatable to other nations whose basis is on that individual freedom and the free market.

No nonsense. If it had to stop, there never would have been a United States...World War II would have been lost to Emperial and fascist forces...etc., etc.

Making an opinionated comment, as I was careful to point out, that individual liberty on the rise in Mainland China (which I believe it is and will be) is a good thing for cross strait relationships has nothing to do with nonsense or the end of history...only with one potential path history might take forward.

No one has indicated that such control need, or ought to be exerted. In fact, quite the contrary. I hope it does not have to be. But history itself tells us sometime it does. I hope and pray in this case that is not so. In my estimation, one natural couse of history can be that people strive for more individual freedom and to control their own personal destiny. Will that happen? I hope so, but cannot tell for sure. Can that course be a natural part of the mainland and Taiwan coming back together...of course it could.

...and I hope it will.

Jeff
1) How the Hell does free-market and Individual freedom matters when other people are squabbling over with you on EEZs or worse leveraged overwhelming united states military might to prolong what nearly everyone in the world considers a civil war and a internal matter.

it is not a matter of palatability sounds like, if one can't establish the direct link between essentially one's "internal conditions" and one's "external rights".

(mind exercise: If china tomorrow becomes "free", would Japan give up Okinawa to be a independent kingdom as it existed before their imperialist thing? would they give up claim on Diaoyudao to China?

My bet would be no, so essentially there is no level which China's internal condition can change to, that will be "palatable" enough for Japan. on this issue.

Think the whole Dokdo island squabble between Korea and Japan. Both are democratic, so why hasn't Japan gave that claim up? )

No, I do not think "Freedom" etc can solve all of these problems or make any one palatable to anything.

2)
Uncle Joe Stalin and a Chinese dictator called Chiang Kai-Shek were fighting the Imperial Japan and the Nazis long before US jump into the war. the nationalistic crazies (Nazis and Imperial Japan) picked their easiest target. Hitler actually thought (crazy!) he could convince US and Britain to stay out, and Japan only did Pearl harbor after it think it can no longer avoid the unavoidable so it had to strike first, essentially gambled thinking it can pull off a Russo-japanese war again.

so, no, WWII is not about WLDs.

As for United States, if true individual freedom were respected, you would not have had the civil war. slaves would have been declared illegal the moment declaration of independence were signed, or that South would part with the Union amicably. either way the history didn;t turn out that way.

3).
In 1950 the KMT is on its last legs and the 7th fleet sailed into the taiwan strait and today we have what we have today. there is a direct causal relationship between the facts of today and what happend 60 years ago (and since).
now I for one do not believe in the inevitable. anything can happen.
but I do see a overwhelming trend in chinese history that chinese themselves believe in. that the country can and must be make whole again. this is the force that I am talking about. it is like the hoover dam and the colorado river thing.

now, The chinese has the good sense to try revert the "wrongs" peacefully.

I consider this world very lucky.


Now,
is the chinese (as a country or as the state) doing everything absolutely correctly? no absolutely not.
they f*ck up as much as anyone if not more both internally and externally, but as long as there is this climate of overwhelming "they are on the wrong side of history so they lost all their rights" thing, there would not be fairness. and usually history teaches us not being fair to people has consequences, may be not that significant consequences with an insignificant eastern european country, but with 1/5 of humanity and an ancient civ that has a long memory like china, you are playing with fire and worse burying land mines for the future.



just do what Jesus and kissinger would do!
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
Come on i.e, Jeff here didn't sail the 7th fleet into the strait did he?

Just because we have greatly different views does not mean we cannot have a nice civil discussion.

As I have found out often in the past, emotions cloud judgement, and I personally make much more coherent and convincing points when I leave strong emotions out of it.

I agree with much of what you are saying, but there is no need to be uncivil when saying it, no? :)
 

i.e.

Senior Member
Come on i.e, Jeff here didn't sail the 7th fleet into the strait did he?

Just because we have greatly different views does not mean we cannot have a nice civil discussion.

As I have found out often in the past, emotions cloud judgement, and I personally make much more coherent and convincing points when I leave strong emotions out of it.

I agree with much of what you are saying, but there is no need to be uncivil when saying it, no? :)

I thought I am very civil.

I may be very straight forward in challenging some very entrenched beliefs. being civil doesn't means his or mine views can't be challenged. I aim not to challenge him personally but the entire philosophical underpinning of that view.

I understand where he comes from. There is nothing wrong with what he comes from, but it is not enough nor satisfactory.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Fair enough if that is how you feel, it just looked like things were getting a little heated. If I was overreacting, I apologise.

I just know from personal experience how easy it is to go from making a robust point to being unnecessarily rude. If you have better self control. Good for you. :)
 
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