PLA Strategy in a Taiwan Contingency

i.e.

Senior Member
Fair enough if that is how you feel, it just looked like things were getting a little heated. If I was overreacting, I apologise.

I just know from personal experience how easy it is to go from making a robust point to being unnecessarily rude. If you have better self control. Good for you. :)

sorry ( to Jeff) if I am being too aggressive or ranty.
 
Fukuyama's stuff is just a convient collection of western ideological underpinnings.

the whole point is what I call WLD (or Western, Liberal, Democracies model) is the final and highest form of human civilization, the final cumulative stage of development in human history. the rational is that since this is IT. then whatever we do to achieve this is justifiable and we are on the "right side of history" and 'them' are on the wrong side. "them" being any state or non-state actors that challenges this view.

well.

I am sorry to extremely skeptical because long time ago a very smart man name Karl who did some analysis on working conditions in Manchester mills in height of industrial revolution claimed the same thing about Communism.

regardless the success of his theories. what I see today is actually the failures of WLDs to deliver the basic material goods to vast majority of poor people in this world. instead we have a very antithesis of WLD model pulled a nation sized 1/5 of humanity out from a failed state to almost a superpower, by being precisely non-ideological and results focused. Not only that, WLD ideological models still fails to confront some of the biggest existential challenges the humanity faces today: climate change. and its partly responsible for getting this world into a manufactured financial depression, that may well finally forfeit the leadership west has enjoyed since onset of industrial revolution.

sorry to be ranty, but I think we need to look at the big picture before we make standard assumptions about alot of things.

I've learned bout that guy's theories in my IS class, although as a IS student myself, I'd say that WLD is definitely not the last of the evolution. WLD is merely a current trend because of various factors, which I can go on forever.

Human minds have shown that we can go very far and beyond, just so long we know where to break the ice. Governments and politics is just another type of management science: as management is ever-evolutionary, so will practices and concepts. However on the other hand, other factors influence us, as we are spiced with cultural differences, religions, and various beliefs, values, greed, desires, morals, and ethics, therefore an ideology or concept which violates those nature are less likely to survive. For the same reason, we will never attain Communism, a form of utopia by itself, because Communism's primary core was a non-cheating world where everyone is NOT selfish. As self-preservation, self-interests, and realism goes against the rules of nature, it is thus unrealistic, and impossible to master.

My feelings will be that the next big thing will be post-modernism, although this won't be around for a longggggg time.
 

i.e.

Senior Member
I've learned bout that guy's theories in my IS class, although as a IS student myself, I'd say that WLD is definitely not the last of the evolution. WLD is merely a current trend because of various factors, which I can go on forever.

Human minds have shown that we can go very far and beyond, just so long we know where to break the ice. Governments and politics is just another type of management science: as management is ever-evolutionary, so will practices and concepts. However on the other hand, other factors influence us, as we are spiced with cultural differences, religions, and various beliefs, values, greed, desires, morals, and ethics, therefore an ideology or concept which violates those nature are less likely to survive. For the same reason, we will never attain Communism, a form of utopia by itself, because Communism's primary core was a non-cheating world where everyone is NOT selfish. As self-preservation, self-interests, and realism goes against the rules of nature, it is thus unrealistic, and impossible to master.

My feelings will be that the next big thing will be post-modernism, although this won't be around for a longggggg time.

read this up and pass along,
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You're right, but there are some very few exceptions, like say Alexander the Great, Kublai Khan (Yuan dynasty) and Hannibal Barca of Carthage are the few successful conqueror that can afford to ignore history for awhile before their fate sets in. One can even put in Napoleon Bonaparte as these guys demonstrated great military command and improvisations in battle to beat the odds in their favor.

Napoleon reminds me of Hitler LOL. Well I'm sure you guys know which areas I'm referring to.

Speaking of Hitler..
[video]http://youtu.be/ckqCZBJWIRo[/video]

[video=youtube;qRRCjux1sbg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRRCjux1sbg&feature=related[/video]

[video]http://youtu.be/pTYYxaEbyPU[/video]
 
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Red___Sword

Junior Member
The US forces of the 7th fleet and US Air Force assets in the area would be enough, IMHO, to blunt an attack by China against Taiwan. Certainly not enough to defeat China and all of her military...but that is not what they would have to do.

........
.


I like the post #194 up till the mentioning of ideology stuff. Besides ideology stuff, it's hardly one (American) who is military savvy, can reasonably conclude, US, at its might, should not (if not "shall not") engaging China in that way - I talk as if military savvy is a bad thing, that's because military savvy still builds wrong-faith regarding not-to-be-played-issues, where mis-caculation is an ART, not a math.

China would not provoke US and actually pick a fight with US; China would resolve her strategical objectives, over TW issue, and in general, global issues. These two things do not conflict each other, it maybe seem clouded by China's past history of "BEING NOT STRONG ENOUGH", but no hawk prediction (or "worst scenario case" evaluation, on, say, US's side) would actually matters to the actual development / evolvement of "tide of history".
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
All of China's other potential threats are land based, and the PLA is strong enough to hold their own long enough for air power to be diverted if another threat presents itself.

If Beijing commits to using force to re-take Taiwan, then all other consideration would come a distinct second.

No my friend, it would be a colossal mistake for the US to think that China would view Taiwan as a war of choice as the US does. For China, Taiwan is a matter of principle, of the very survival of the CCP itself, as if there is one thing that is almost guaranteed to cause the people and military of China to turn against the CCP, is if they 'lost' Taiwan.

Once committed, the Chinese will not back down until they have taken Taiwan no matter the cost. The sooner the US realises this simple fact, the fewer lives might be lost.

Well we will just have to disagree on that one.

I do not think the US forces in the western pacific are strong enough to carry out the blocking role you envisaged. It is probably strong enough to block the PLAN from pushing past the second or third island chains, but then the PLAN has never had much interest in going that far .
I understand all you have said...and can only say this in response.

If, as so many indicate, that Taiwan is essential to the PRC and an object of such absolute poignancy and focus...then why has Taiwan been essentially free for 60 years? All of the things you have talked about have existed throughout that period.

Is it soley because of US power? In terms of pure numbers and capability, the ratios have not changed that much.

There have been numerous ocassions when the US was diverted with other compelling issues (Vietnam, the height of the Cold War, Desert Storm, and(a few years ago) when Iraq and Aghanistan were going at the same time in major fashions, when the PRC could have done exactly the same thing, with exactly the same rational as you speak of now.

And yet they did not.

My guess is that there are other considerations, beyond the nationalistic fervor that you speak of, which are driving the issue behind the scenes as well. The PRC would definitely not divert ALL of its air or naval strength purely for Taiwan. That would be to invite other squabbles to be taken abject advantage of as well on other borders and with other islands and regional concerns.

Perhaps the PRC is reaching a point where they feel that the composition and make-up of forces make it more possible. But I believe the US is still holding the technological and capability edge that it has held throughout...and is verging on technologies that will even extend it.

My guess is also that there would be a point in any war of attrition, where enough losses would compel the PRC to cease and desist if they had not gained the upperhand. They would not use up and lose all of the more modern systems they had accumulated if it looked like that might be the case.

Would that happen? I honestly do not know...but it could, and that would be one of the worst case scenarios they would have to plan for.

As I said earlier...I hope and pray it never need come to that, and will leave this discussion on that note.

i.e. said:
How the Hell does free-market and Individual freedom matters when other people are squabbling over with you on EEZs or worse leveraged overwhelming united states military might to prolong what nearly everyone in the world considers a civil war and a internal matter.
It matters because the people of Taiwan particularly, and the U.S. are going to be more open to reunification as the differences in these particular areas are lessened.

You may think that is trivial...but it is not.

I cannot make a solid prediction that it will make the difference. But it certainly could and I am simply expressing my hope that it does.

No one has stated that China need give up its desire, or its claim to Taiwan. However, the people of Taiwan have been (from their own perspective) free and independent for over 60 years. A lot of that time, they were recognized by the international community as such. Now they are not. But you have generations now of those people living that way and of themselves you can understand how they might not want to so easily give that up.

That is why I say through economic and through these other means a point could be reached where giving it up (what they deem to be there own soveriegnty) would be worthwhile because of reaching a point where the differences are so small that they are fine with it.

That's all. I for one, hope it goes that way as opposed to armed conflict That was the whole point of my comments and I stand by them.

...and with that, I believe we have expressed our viewpoints directly and I do not need to punctuate them any further on this count...so I will leave them at that.
 

i.e.

Senior Member
It matters because the people of Taiwan particularly, and the U.S. are going to be more open to reunification as the differences in these particular areas are lessened.

You may think that is trivial...but it is not.

I cannot make a solid prediction that it will make the difference. But it certainly could and I am simply expressing my hope that it does.

No one has stated that China need give up its desire, or its claim to Taiwan. However, the people of Taiwan have been (from their own perspective) free and independent for over 60 years. A lot of that time, they were recognized by the international community as such. Now they are not. .


Jeff,

when the 7th Fleet sailed in TW straight 60 years ago, Chiang Kai Shek and the utterly corrupt KMT which f*cked up china pretty bad, can not, by any strech of means, consider to be an institution that has democratic leaning and respecting human rights. this is the bunch of bastard that during ww2 hoarded huge amounts of american military aid for their personal wealth.

when he died, He passed the power to his SON. his SON.

This is the insitution which US has defended until early 1990s. until DPP took over in an election.

now if you would have talked to any DPP (democratic progressive party) die hards, their #1 beef is with KMT. Their entire Hatred and dislike for the mainland china, stem almost entirely from a combination of hatred of KMT and how corrupt they were and how bad they treated the locals once they fled to TW. go find one, and drill it down. you will see what I mean.

Now, today, Yes, taiwanese wants freedom and rights etc. but what china is proposing, even start in 70s, is a hands-off union.

Mr Chiang and his gang if back then if they would have accepted the deal, he would have ran his own fiefdom. Mao would have tolerated that back then; they would have tolerated much more today.

so, no, human rights and individual liberty is not a stumbling block.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Now, today, Yes, taiwanese wants freedom and rights etc. but what china is proposing, even start in 70s, is a hands-off union.

Mr Chiang and his gang if back then if they would have accepted the deal, he would have ran his own fiefdom. Mao would have tolerated that back then; they would have tolerated much more today.

So, no, human rights and individual liberty is not a stumbling block.
I have spent a lot of time in Taiwan and undertsand the history very well. I know and have talked to many citizens there as I spent (sometimes) months at a time in my work there.

Admittedly, it has now been well over 8 years since I was there.

The KMT did harsh and terrible things. Part of it was the war itself with the Japanese and the civil war. A large part was also the individuals involved.

It happened on both sides, no doubt that many people on the other side (and on his side too) would say the same thing about Mao, just like they do about the KMT and Chiang.

My point is simplly that as those issues regarding folks individual liberty and their ability to self-govern as much as possible draw closer together, and as the economic dependancies grow, the need for and use of military force and conflict to "force a union" will become less and less likely or needed.

If those things go one long enough and get close enough together, the reunification will be (as some have said here) a natural process...and it should be.

That is my hope.

I hope that neither side forces the other away from such a track. I can understand the Taiwan desire for independence...as far as many of them are concerned, they already are and have been for 60 years. I do not think any of them want a devastating war to achieve it for the sake of achieving it. I believe if the issues driving them for wanting to be apart are addressed, the desire for it will also diminish as they realize they can enjoy the same libertires, and even more prosperity without it. But that is only if it becomes evident that they can. Just as much as I hope no hothead on the Taiwan sides comes along and, unprovoked, pushs that issue too hard, I also hope the PRC does not decide to "Crack the whip" and force those people into unification before the incentives, in terms of their own liberty and prosperity, makes it somethig they would want anyway.

Now, the posturing the U.S. does at this time is in large oriented around avoiding what the U.S. views as a long-time ally being forced into a union based on the latter condition in the above paragraph, with military force, that it does not desire. Part of that is the human rights, ideological side...another part is the way the U.S. would be viewed if the stood back and allowed something like that to happen to someone viewed as an ally.

I believe and hope all that can be avoided...and without either side having to give up what it views as its core interests. Time will tell, but I believe it is achievable.
 
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Equation

Lieutenant General
Wow, I missed a lot since the last time I logged in! Excellent dialogue gentlemen! I have a question for you all, do you think it's possible that Taiwan Island could become an S.A.R. someday? Or another scenario could be they can keep their independence, but under Beijing's military protection, meaning only PLA forces are allowed.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Napoleon reminds me of Hitler LOL. Well I'm sure you guys know which areas I'm referring to.

Speaking of Hitler..
[video]http://youtu.be/ckqCZBJWIRo[/video]

[video=youtube;qRRCjux1sbg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRRCjux1sbg&feature=related[/video]

[video]http://youtu.be/pTYYxaEbyPU[/video]

The British were no different than Napoleon. They attacked the US in the war of 1812 right after they defeated Napoleon at Waterloo and send him off to some far away island.
 
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