PLA Strategy in a Taiwan Contingency

Re: Taiwan in stealth technology breakthrough: report

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Oh yea and for the record, last time US lent support to Georgia, we all saw what happened, right? From what you've said being "time is on the US' side with regards to the fighting and other consequences of fighting. ", US had a lot of time after all the major military operations ended in Georgia, but none of us were interrupted of any breaking news regarding US entering to assist Georgia during the rest of the Beijing Olympics. Where did all the Pentagon planning go?

It's interesting you bring up the case of Georgia.

I don't think that is a good military scenario comparison with Taiwan because Georgia shares a land border with Russia and is somewhat landlocked, and is in a neighborhood where countries ambivalent/hostile to the US and countries friendly to the US are roughly balanced.

With the Taiwan scenario there is the Taiwan Strait between China and Taiwan, as well as Taiwan being an island with sea approaches all around, and clearly more countries in the neighborhood tilt towards the US.

The hearts and minds aspect of a conflict over Taiwan is likely to determine which side is ultimately victorious, with the purely military aspect actually being subservient. Misleading Western reporting notwithstanding there is actually a significant pro-unification segment of the Taiwanese population as well as a large ambivalent segment. Depending on the context of how an armed conflict over Taiwan is triggered and how each side conducts their warfare the end result is likely to be total victory for one side or the other rather than the geographical divisions which resulted in Georgia.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: Taiwan in stealth technology breakthrough: report

Libya and Taiwan are utterly different situations, with the US playing a different role in both.

Yes, Libya is completely different from the US invading a PLA occupied Taiwan.

The US is facing a hopelessly outclassed enemy in Libya, conduction a purely 'supportive' air campaign, has an UN mandate and a clear moral case to get involved. Yet the US is only involved with great reluctance and much frustration to be doing as much as it is since Obama expected his European allies to be doing the bulk of the grunt work.

And the US has repeated stressed that they are not putting any boots on the ground.

How can you go from there to suggest that the US would want to not only put boots on the ground, and a lot of them, in a Taiwan scenario where they are facing a near peer, on the other side of the world and can expect to take punishing military and crippling economic losses if it commits to such a conflict?

The US has demonstrated the capability to fight for very prolonged periods. China's capability is relatively untested. This isn't 2001, but the US is still more than capable of fighting a prolonged fight and winning, especially if the reasons are clear cut.

Oh really? When was the last time this happened in the real world exactly?

Iraq I & II? Push overs both times. Afghanistan, same thing.

Vietnam. Who won that exactly?

Korea. Decisive victory?

The last time America demonstrated this ability to fight a prolonged war and win was WII. Maybe you would care to read up on your history to find out just what kind of hardship and sacrifices all Americans had to make during WWII to win, and see if you can imagine them willing to go through all that again tomorrow for an island most of them probably never heard of before.

The last two major conflicts where the US faces serious opposition was Vietnam and Korea, neither of which America won, and China played a major role in both.

Russia would help China re: Taiwan?

India would?

if not them who else would even matter?

What makes you think China would need anyone else's help? And more to the point, who would want to help America in such a war with China?

South Korea would not help for fear of re-starting the Korean war, and Japan would have to be stupid to get involved. Especially not now with all the reconstruction they need to do.

Even if Japan helps, their bases are hardly any closer than the bases America already have.

Go look at a map to see just how far American air power will have to go to even reach Taiwan.

If America gets involved in Taiwan, their primary strike power will have to come from their carriers.

It is one thing playing cat and mouse with the PLA in the Pacific, but to launch an amphibious landing and support it means those carriers and amphibious ships need to get close and stay close. That means they have to either try to take out effectively the PLA's entire strike aircraft fleet, sub fleet, surface fleet, FAC fleet and mobile cruise and ballistic missile launcher fleets, or that amphibious fleet and carriers and escorts are going to be taking punishing losses if any survive at all.

To take Taiwan from the PLA would require pretty much the same commitment of resources and the same losses as if the US were to try and launch an amphibious invasion of the Chinese mainland. Only many times harder since the Chinese mainland has a vast coastline, so the PLA would need to spread its forces whereas Taiwan is small and they can focus their resources and efforts.

Considering how ready the US was to step in and beat up Qaddaffi when he was massacring civilians by the hundreds and thousands, I think I am not alone in doubting how prepared the US would be to try and fight another land war with China effectively on Chinese territory.

Even American power has limits. Only fanboys would assume otherwise.
 
Re: Taiwan in stealth technology breakthrough: report

It's interesting you bring up the case of Georgia.

I don't think that is a good military scenario comparison with Taiwan because Georgia shares a land border with Russia and is somewhat landlocked, and is in a neighborhood where countries ambivalent/hostile to the US and countries friendly to the US are roughly balanced.

With the Taiwan scenario there is the Taiwan Strait between China and Taiwan, as well as Taiwan being an island with sea approaches all around, and clearly more countries in the neighborhood tilt towards the US.

The hearts and minds aspect of a conflict over Taiwan is likely to determine which side is ultimately victorious, with the purely military aspect actually being subservient. Misleading Western reporting notwithstanding there is actually a significant pro-unification segment of the Taiwanese population as well as a large ambivalent segment. Depending on the context of how an armed conflict over Taiwan is triggered and how each side conducts their warfare the end result is likely to be total victory for one side or the other rather than the geographical divisions which resulted in Georgia.

What I was comparing to when I brought up the Georgia case was how Georgia almost had an unspoken assurance they would receive assistance from the US, to go against Russia. Of course what happened, we all knew. This is a similar case between Beijing, Taipei, and Washington. Washington mentioned it will defend Taiwan, but is US really willing to go all out against instead of Russia, but China?
 

Red___Sword

Junior Member
Considering how ready the US was to step in and beat up Qaddaffi when he was massacring civilians by the hundreds and thousands, I think I am not alone in doubting how prepared the US would be to try and fight another land war with China effectively on Chinese territory.

LOL, the way wolf mastering the words, dims many usual-big-shots among many people's day to day mainstream media.

To cool down the tension here (here in this forum), I, a PRC citizen have no doubt that taking out a US carrier kind of "national namecard" assets would push EVERYONE into something too deep and too hard to coming out (neo-total war) which the war itself would not be "gaining whatever benifit" but keeps as much status-quo as possible - and of which US (arguably China), is "good" at. (It's total war across all spectrum I am talking about)

The point is, both sides needs relatively huge amount of self-consciousness to prevent this from happening at first place, when there would be not that much status-quo for you to keep, when this actually happens.

I thinks there was no fanboy making some claims regarding this thread here at SDF, but I would like to call for MORE through thought for people trying to making a point, that, how things are NOT going to happen, when it involves both US and China, and they sits at different ends of a table.
 
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Red Moon

Junior Member
LOL, the way wolf mastering the words, dims many usual-big-shots among many people's day to day mainstream media.

To cool down the tension here (here in this forum), I, a PRC citizen have no doubt that taking out a US carrier kind of "national namecard" assets would push EVERYONE into something too deep and too hard to coming out (neo-total war) which the war itself would not be "gaining whatever benifit" but keeps as much status-quo as possible - and of which US (arguably China), is "good" at. (It's total war across all spectrum I am talking about)

The point is, both sides needs relatively huge amount of self-consciousness to prevent this from happening at first place, when there would be not that much status-quo for you to keep, when this actually happens.

I thinks there was no fanboy making some claims regarding this thread here at SDF, but I would like to call for MORE through thought for people trying to making a point, that, how things are NOT going to happen, when it involves both US and China, and they sits at different ends of a table.

Easy to say, Red_Sword, but if you look at the title of the thread, this already predisposes people to not think too much. Notice, it is not PRC strategy or CPC strategy in the Taiwan Strait. Hell, it's not even PLA strategy, but just the navy. I'm not accusing whoever it was that started this thread of anything underhanded, but it is obvious that the PLAN or the PLA has no strategy apart from the POLITICAL strategy of the party and the government. By posing the question of "PLAN" strategy, we are already talking about "hard power" if not shooting.
 

Red___Sword

Junior Member
Easy to say, Red_Sword, but if you look at the title of the thread, this already predisposes people to not think too much. Notice, it is not PRC strategy or CPC strategy in the Taiwan Strait. Hell, it's not even PLA strategy, but just the navy. I'm not accusing whoever it was that started this thread of anything underhanded, but it is obvious that the PLAN or the PLA has no strategy apart from the POLITICAL strategy of the party and the government. By posing the question of "PLAN" strategy, we are already talking about "hard power" if not shooting.

Agreed.

To satisfy certain wishes to quench the thrist of some hegemony eager: when it comes to the "hard power", the PLAN strategy is (ignore the tense)

- to bug off, when US navy getting involved, pre-1996; (try and true)
- to bug off, when US navy getting involved; (happening)
- to make them bug off, when PLA can make a standoff, across 2nd island chain, despite US navy getting involved or not. (that's not ganna happen too soon)

Please don't be mislead by any intimidation(if any) - the point is not "start shooting, and last man standing" - the point is the "shooting" never going to start, when explicitly, one party bug off.

Even talking about "hard power", that's how things are NOT going to happen, the game plays.
 

delft

Brigadier
Indeed, all the military in the capitals concerned in the US, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and PRC must know already for a considerable time that the time for a war about Taiwan will not come.
 

Red Moon

Junior Member
Yes, because China doesn't want it, and obviously Taiwan doesn't either. But I also agree with mr RedS, that there won't be a direct war between the US and China anywhere. A "proxy" war would be possible, but I seriously doubt even this is in the cards, as China is simply not playing this game.
 
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Spartan95

Junior Member
That's just for the headline and largely symbolic. There are no 'combat' troops in Iraq, but there is still significant US military assets and personnel tied down there still.

Again, largely for the home crowd. There are still huge numbers of American military personnel and assets tied down and will likely remain so for some time despite what the politicians say to appease the home audience.

1. No high end hardware is being tied down (B2s, Aegis ships, F22s, etc).
2. More and more responsibilities (particularly the fron end duties) are being handed over to local forces and military contractors (Blackwater and the like).


The opening move of any PLA plan to re-take Taiwan will not involve them sailing huge numbers of men and equipment across the straight.

China probably have sufficient ground forces stationed within a few days of Taiwan to take the island, and enough to take the island several times over can be moved into striking position within a matter of days, a week at worst. This is a fight on China's doorstep do not forget.

If the PLA wants to take Taiwan, it will need to take out its defenses first. The 2nd Artillery already have vast numbers of missiles stationed within striking distance of Taiwan. These missiles can be fired without having to leave their home bases in many cases.

It's a similar case with the air force. Much of the force needed to take the island can strike from their home bases. Maybe not all and additional forces would need to be mobilized and brought in to take the island, but for the opening strike, the units already in striking range should more than suffice.

It will take time to weaken Taiwan's defenses enough for a landing to become a viable option, and the full mobilisation can take place then.

Given how close Taiwan is to China, with modern weapons, they could be very little pre-warning of an attack.

And the US Pacific Fleet is not active in the area at any given time? And US Pacific Air Force and Marine Corp is sitting in Hawaii only? Do you even know how many US warships are in South China Sea, East China Sea and Sea of Japan at any 1 time? Not to mention the sizeable US military assets based in RoK, Japan and Guam. There's a reason why the USN is known as the only global navy on this planet.

If that was a serious option I am sure they would have taken it by now. The Iranians learnt from Saddam's folly and has gone out of their way to spread out their work and have back up facilities for back-up facilities to make it almost impossible to take out its nuclear programme from the air with any confidence.

The Israelis asked for the US bunker busting bomb that can take out the hardened nuclear facility. The US rejected the request. Otherwise, the strike would have taken place already.

As for back-up facilities, I'd think Mossad would have figured it out already and factored it into their plan. There's plenty of allegations as it is about Mossad's assassination of the people involved in the Iran nuclear program.

As I mentioned before, you are welcome to try and bomb their bomb, but chances are you will never fully eradicate it and will have to come back and do it all over again a decade or some further down the line.

In the meantime, extremely dangerous materials and advanced weapons might just go walkies in Iran because of 'all the confusion for the western attacks', and find their way into the hands of Al-Q or other global jihadists desperate to strike at the west.

Attacking Iran will open a massive can of worms, especially if you leave the job half done, and could easily result in one of the main fears behind the decision to go to war (that nuclear materials might find its way into the hands of terrorists and be used to attack the west) becoming reality.

You either leave Iran the well alone, or you go in to utterly remove all the nuclear, chemical and biological weapons material in the country. Since the west does not have the stomach for that kind of commitment, any attack on Iran will ultimately prove counter-productive to the west's goals and interests in the long run.

Syria is in a completely different league to Iran or Iraq and could not afford anywhere close to the scale of Iran's nuclear efforts.

The fact that if they do release WMD material to terrorists and it was used in an attack, or even captured, the materials will ultimately be traced to Iran, and that will almost certainly lead to war.

It's the same principle as MAD. Iran dissuade the west from military adventurism with the veiled threat that an attack might lead to dangerous materials going 'missing'. The west discourages Iran from 'misplacing' such materials normally with the threat of attack if that happened. As soon as one side plays their hand, it would free the other from any restraint.

And there is no loose nuclear material from the collapse of the USSR? From discarded medical equipment that uses radioactive sources?

In more developed countries, there are nuclear waste dumps:

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These are public knowledge and provide enough radioactive material for dangerous purposes. In less developed countries, these are dumped as common trash. A person with a Geiger counter can actually locate and collect it. Much easier to obtain and at much lower cost compared to loose Iranian sources.

Well not if you actually want to win.

And as McCool already pointed out, the GCC is massively out of its league trying to mess with Iran American military support or not.

Depends on the definition of winning.

As for the GCC, that is 1 option, but by no means the only option. Partition is another option where Iran is broken up into different states (such as a state for the Kurds, another 1 for Shiites and another 1 for Sunnis). The GCC can than quite legitimately enforce peace in 1 state, NATO in 1 and UN in another.

Indeed, all the military in the capitals concerned in the US, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and PRC must know already for a considerable time that the time for a war about Taiwan will not come.

True. But the preparations go on nonetheless (US spy plane flights, ROC military exercises, PLA military exercises, etc).
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
1. No high end hardware is being tied down (B2s, Aegis ships, F22s, etc).

So no carriers are on station? Those carriers are operating without escorts?

And it is not just frontline assets that I was talking about. Significant back-end support, such as AWACS, tankers, C&C equipment and personnel etc are all tied down supporting the operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Have a good look at the map and see just how far those F22s will get without massive tanker support, or how long those B2s will last in Chinese airspace when the PLA's air defense capabilities are fully operational.

2. More and more responsibilities (particularly the fron end duties) are being handed over to local forces and military contractors (Blackwater and the like).

They are taking over the kind of operations and that have zero bearing on this discussion, unless Blackwater (who changed their name to Xe btw) started operating carriers now.

And the US Pacific Fleet is not active in the area at any given time? And US Pacific Air Force and Marine Corp is sitting in Hawaii only? Do you even know how many US warships are in South China Sea, East China Sea and Sea of Japan at any 1 time? Not to mention the sizeable US military assets based in RoK, Japan and Guam. There's a reason why the USN is known as the only global navy on this planet.

Maybe you would care to look on a map and then figure out how useful military bases in South Korea or the vast majority of bases in Japan will be in a Taiwan scenario. Not to mention the very likely case that South Korea at the very least will not allow bases on their soil to be used in hostilities against China for fear that that would re-start the Korean War.

The USN have a global presence, but if those few picket ships tried to starting something against the likes of China without proper support, then the only thing that will happen is they will get sunk.

The USN is not stupid and knows is. That is why they will not start shooting until they feel they have gathered enough strength to have at least a fighting chance. Harder to do if half their fleet was occupied fighting a war against Iran in the Gulf.

The Israelis asked for the US bunker busting bomb that can take out the hardened nuclear facility. The US rejected the request. Otherwise, the strike would have taken place already.

And did you not bother to stop for a minute and think why exactly the US vetoed the strike by refusing those weapons? Or did you think that was some new budget cut?

As for back-up facilities, I'd think Mossad would have figured it out already and factored it into their plan. There's plenty of allegations as it is about Mossad's assassination of the people involved in the Iran nuclear program.

You'd 'think'? So just how sure is that? 70%? 80%? What's the risk assessment here? How much would you be willing to bet on Mossad having found every single last site? Are you willing to bet your life on it? The lives of your loved ones?

You need to be pretty absolutely damn sure if you are going to green light such a strike, because you are literally betting with thousands, maybe even millions of lives that you are 100% right.

If you cannot be 100% certain, your only options are to go in all out on the ground to make sure you got everything, or don't even start anything in the first place.

And there is no loose nuclear material from the collapse of the USSR? From discarded medical equipment that uses radioactive sources?

Do you have any idea at how much effort has been put into tracking down and safely disposing of those materials?

And you obviously need to read up firstly on just how little radioactive materials there is in most 'radioactive' medical equipment, and secondly on how much monitoring and safety checks there are to make sure all of those materials are properly accounted for and safely disposed of.

What more, there is a world of difference between how hard it would be for terrorists to try and find and secure a suitable source of radioactive material, having the equipment and expertise to extract, purify and weaponize it, compared to a state agent knocking on their door with a briefcase bomb ready to go.

Terrorist organisations are very good are recruiting and training up bombers, it is finding, processing and weaponizing the suitable materials that is their current bottleneck. One that could be quickly removed if a certain government is hacked off enough and don't think they have much else to loose.

In more developed countries, there are nuclear waste dumps:

These are public knowledge and provide enough radioactive material for dangerous purposes. In less developed countries, these are dumped as common trash. A person with a Geiger counter can actually locate and collect it. Much easier to obtain and at much lower cost compared to loose Iranian sources.

Oh wow, just how stupid do you think the world's best counter-intelligence agencies are if it really is that easy to make a dirty bomb?

Talking tough on the interwebs is easy. If you actually thought about the logistics or even have the most basic knowledge about how things worked, you would realize how silly what you are suggesting is.

First of all, as I mentioned earlier, 'radioactive' parts in the overwhelming majority of medical equipment only contain extremely weak radioactive sources. If you made a dirty bomb out of that stuff, the worst you will do is make it unsafe for people exposed to the particles to have x-rays for a few years. Maybe a mildly increased risk of cancer in their later life. Not pleasant, but certainly not what anyone has in mind when they talk of 'dirty bombs'.

For the tiny number of specialist equipment that does have mildly strong radioactive parts, those machines and parts are strictly monitored. What more, these machines tend to be the size of cars and weigh in the tons. They are not the kind of thing that can easily go missing or be misplaced. And there are people who's jobs are all about making sure all those those machines and their critical parts never go missing (and tracking those down if they do go walkies).

And lastly, just basic engineering. When you need to use a strong radioactive material, you need to properly shield it so it is safe to use. Most safes are easier to get into. And unless that shielding was breached, your Geigor Counter would tell you nothing even if you were standing right on top of the most powerful radioactive material known to man.

All of this is pure common sense. And there are lots more measures that I will not bother to get into here since it is off topic and also since I believe I have already made my point.
 
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