PLA Strategy in a Taiwan Contingency

solarz

Brigadier
Re: Taiwan in stealth technology breakthrough: report

That's exactly what people said about Iraq. The Iraqi military didn't last all that long and all the high end US military hardware was on their way home soon enough, leaving the boots on the ground to clean up the place.

And look how long it's taking to clean up that mess. Now multiply the area they have to cover by four.
 

Spartan95

Junior Member
Re: Taiwan in stealth technology breakthrough: report

And look how long it's taking to clean up that mess. Now multiply the area they have to cover by four.

US needed to clean up the mess in Iraq for the oil there.

Will they do the same elsewhere? Looking at Afghanistan and the yet to be defeated Taleban with impending US drawdown, it shows that it is not a given that the US will always stay to do clean up.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Re: Taiwan in stealth technology breakthrough: report

US needed to clean up the mess in Iraq for the oil there.

Will they do the same elsewhere? Looking at Afghanistan and the yet to be defeated Taleban with impending US drawdown, it shows that it is not a given that the US will always stay to do clean up.

We're getting rather off topic, but what exactly would be the purpose of invading Iran and then leaving it in chaos? Even without oil, the US has stayed in Afghanistan for 10 years now.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: Taiwan in stealth technology breakthrough: report

That's exactly what people said about Iraq. The Iraqi military didn't last all that long and all the high end US military hardware was on their way home soon enough, leaving the boots on the ground to clean up the place.

Maybe you missed the tens of thousands of US troops and equipment still in Iraq and Afghanistan today.

Besides, if China just wanted to help facilitate a far away war to tie down American military assets to allow them to take Taiwan, it wouldn't really matter how long the war is. It will take weeks if not months to redeploy those assets even in peace time, and in that timeframe, the PLA would almost certainly have taken Taiwan.

In reality, if America has just started bombing Iran, and China attacked Taiwan a few days into the conflict, America is hardly going to be able to pull all its carrier from operations off the Iranian coast at the drop of a hat and sail all the way to the South China Sea are they?

Even if they do, they would have to pass through well know geographical choke points that the PLAN would almost certainly be staking out.

US needed to clean up the mess in Iraq for the oil there.

Will they do the same elsewhere? Looking at Afghanistan and the yet to be defeated Taleban with impending US drawdown, it shows that it is not a given that the US will always stay to do clean up.

Depends on why they went to war in the first place. If the Americans just bombed the crap out of Iran and went home after, all that would do is make it an almost certainty that the Iranian state would either seek to strike back at America directly or indirectly (via jihadists and Al-Q). They can provide material support in terms of funds and advanced weapons or even nuclear material to all of America's many enemies.

Iran might not be able to make a working nuclear bomb, but I dare say they easily have the components needed to make a dirty bomb. They would also have weapons grade chemical compounds they can 'misplace'.

That would be right up there on the list of western counter-terrorism forces' worst nightmare list.

If the west attacks Iran, it will almost certainly need to put boots on the ground to seek out at dispose of all such materials for their own peace of mind.

That is just the short term, in the medium to long term, Iran will only be more determined to get a nuclear bomb, and will be re-building its nuclear programme, so unless the west wants to bomb Iran every decade or some until the end of time, they need to put boots on the ground if they resort to military action, and that is going to cost them.
 

icbeodragon

Junior Member
Re: Taiwan in stealth technology breakthrough: report

Maybe you missed the tens of thousands of US troops and equipment still in Iraq and Afghanistan today.

Besides, if China just wanted to help facilitate a far away war to tie down American military assets to allow them to take Taiwan, it wouldn't really matter how long the war is. It will take weeks if not months to redeploy those assets even in peace time, and in that timeframe, the PLA would almost certainly have taken Taiwan.

In reality, if America has just started bombing Iran, and China attacked Taiwan a few days into the conflict, America is hardly going to be able to pull all its carrier from operations off the Iranian coast at the drop of a hat and sail all the way to the South China Sea are they?

Even if they do, they would have to pass through well know geographical choke points that the PLAN would almost certainly be staking out.

Why do these scenarios always end when the PRC has taken Taiwan? What happens after? I scarcely believe the US Navy would cease operations at that point. I also find it hard to believe that there isn't at least one plan/strategy in the pentagon for liberating Taiwan from the PRC.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: Taiwan in stealth technology breakthrough: report

Why do these scenarios always end when the PRC has taken Taiwan? What happens after? I scarcely believe the US Navy would cease operations at that point. I also find it hard to believe that there isn't at least one plan/strategy in the pentagon for liberating Taiwan from the PRC.

If the Pentagon had drafted such a plan, it would have been binned as soon as anyone of import read it. Regardless of outcome, trying to take Taiwan from the PLA would require a blood price America will never be willing to pay for someone else without China re-enacting Pearl Harbor first, and the Chinese would never make such a base mistake.

The Americans could not be less keen to put boots on the ground against tiny, weak, divided Libya, how do you imagine they would suddenly find the appetite to try and take an island from the Chinese on their doorstep? And shortly after the PLA has just taken the island?

Sure, that would mean the infrastructure would likely be all shot to hell and make logistics difficult, but OTOH, Taiwan at that time would have probably the highest concentration of troops and equipment anywhere in China, and all of that would be the very best the PLA has, who have just been battle hardened and probably have massively high moral because of their recent victory. And you want to invade that? Trying to invade mainland China will probably be easier.

America would risk, and almost certainly take, huge casualties just trying to get their amphibious ships into a position to attempt take make a landing, if enough survive that far to make an invasion feasible. They would take massive losses trying to make a landing, and far more to push the PLA off Taiwan.

It is highly questionable if even the US has such military might without having to turn this into a full blooded war that would require the complete re-orientation of both national economies towards full scale support of the war effort and starting a draft, since America's standing military assets, munitions and personnel numbers would almost certainly not be sufficient to see the job done given the likely attrition rates such an effort would require.

If war breaks out across the Taiwan strait, China will not back down, they will re-direct their entire economy for war if that is what is required, and the only way America can win against that is to follow suit.

Even if by some insanity America was willing to take the tens if not hundreds of thousands in casualties such an undertaking would likely cost them if history of what happened the last time they faced the PLA in open warfare was any judge (and the gap between the Chinese and American militaries have narrowed exponentially since then), they will not be willing to re-direct their economy for war.

America trying to take Taiwan back from China has never been seriously considered as a possibility because not only will attempting it cost far far more than America will ever be willing to pay in treasure and blood, but also because there is a very good chance they will loose if they tried it, thus is is a possibility so remote as to not be worth considering.

The odds are probably higher that an asteroid would end us all tomorrow and make this point moot.
 
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Red___Sword

Junior Member
wolf,

If war breaks out across the Taiwan strait, China will not back down, they will re-direct their entire economy for war if that is what is required, and the only way America can win against that is to follow suit.

Let's try to make sense out of non-sense, #155 is a little bit non-sense, but we can still trying to find some sense out of it.

He trying to indicate that US won't let it go easily even PRC has retaken Taiwan islands (islands, not only single island), that, I say make some sense.

- China is going to face some long-term blockade in the name of whatever justice;

- They can drop CIA opertives inside almost-no-man-land of Tibet and Xinjiang to stir up rebellion at the 50's, they can surely drop some yellow color skined "dissenters" at the population densed Taiwan islands to make some unrest over the just war-torned Chinese citizens.

- On top of blockade (didn't say it would be very much effective), sicne CBGs vitually have an "don't mess me up" effect, they can harrass / bully what ever they seem fit, judging by China won't fire the first shot, and won't even actually retaliate IF being "mis-fired" by first shot, in order to legally make US stay out of war (with China), US CBGs REALLY CAN make a mess. Not to mention the "U" circle military "outposts" US has erected surrounding China...

- Hard to say the trillions of dollars of US debt in China's hand is a weapon or fragile glass at this point of time. US can't deny it outright for the bigger picture; China can't wave it as if something hammering US for this couldn't being a better excuse / motivation for US to get the hand in Taiwan crysis.

- There's an OT discussion of Japan's role in the stage of Asia nextdoor (another thread). Thing is, supporting China, if Japan getting out of hand, like WWII; supporting Japan, if China "getting out of hand", that's a defacto policy by the US decision makers, despite during cold war or not - and it somewhat makes sense (to those believers at least). Japan being suppressed too long, it is time to bring up China-Japan borderline issues to stir up Japan's fear and effectively support them both military and political. A "normalized" Japan fitting the shoes. Nothing better to let they fight each other to do the work for the US.

....

In all, it dose make sense, that China will suffer, if China takes Taiwan by force, although I have no doubt China will endure and revive.

It is why I simply shrug on this whole thread at first place - Taiwan ain't going anywhere, yet China got so much to gain, by 博弈 chess play over the globe, people just having an undying affection to "see some actions" among Taiwan Strait - Why would PRC fall for it, at first place?

PS.: Who brings up (it never officially) "Trade Taiwan for Iran" theory? - It must be the one who is more desperate, right?
 

Spartan95

Junior Member
Re: Taiwan in stealth technology breakthrough: report

Maybe you missed the tens of thousands of US troops and equipment still in Iraq and Afghanistan today.

US has pulled out of Iraq already. Military contractors remain.

As for Afghanistan, they have also started pulling out. The 1st phase of pull out was pulling back the "surge" troops. Now, they are preparing for more pull outs with the handing over of security duties to Afghan troops/police. They certainly aren't waiting until Afghanistan is rebuilt before pulling out.

Besides, if China just wanted to help facilitate a far away war to tie down American military assets to allow them to take Taiwan, it wouldn't really matter how long the war is. It will take weeks if not months to redeploy those assets even in peace time, and in that timeframe, the PLA would almost certainly have taken Taiwan.

In reality, if America has just started bombing Iran, and China attacked Taiwan a few days into the conflict, America is hardly going to be able to pull all its carrier from operations off the Iranian coast at the drop of a hat and sail all the way to the South China Sea are they?

And the PLA will also need to mass it forces across from ROC before they can mount an invasion.

Are you assuming that PLA:
1. Don't need to mass forces to successfully invade ROC? Or
2. US will not pick up PLA massing its forces?
3. US will not react to PLA forces massing across from ROC?

Depends on why they went to war in the first place. If the Americans just bombed the crap out of Iran and went home after, all that would do is make it an almost certainty that the Iranian state would either seek to strike back at America directly or indirectly (via jihadists and Al-Q).

Don't need to bomb the crap out of Iran. Just need to take out the nuclear facilities.

Israel did it decades ago on Iraq with the Osirak raid. And Israel allegedly repeated it to Syria a few years back.

Iran might not be able to make a working nuclear bomb, but I dare say they easily have the components needed to make a dirty bomb. They would also have weapons grade chemical compounds they can 'misplace'.

That would be right up there on the list of western counter-terrorism forces' worst nightmare list.

And what stops them from doing this anyway (regardless of invasion or not)?

If the west attacks Iran, it will almost certainly need to put boots on the ground to seek out at dispose of all such materials for their own peace of mind.

That is just the short term, in the medium to long term, Iran will only be more determined to get a nuclear bomb, and will be re-building its nuclear programme, so unless the west wants to bomb Iran every decade or some until the end of time, they need to put boots on the ground if they resort to military action, and that is going to cost them.

Why can't the boots on the ground come from Saudi? Or Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) members? I'm pretty sure Iraq will be quite glad to have boots on the ground in Iran.
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Re: Taiwan in stealth technology breakthrough: report

Why can't the boots on the ground come from Saudi? Or Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) members? I'm pretty sure Iraq will be quite glad to have boots on the ground in Iran.

The Gulf kingdoms would never do such a thing. For one, it's just not feasible. Iran has a bigger population than all of them combined if I'm not mistaken. Secondly, the Gulf sheiks would never do heavy lifting in any sort of war, it's not their nature, they're cowards when it comes down to it, made weak by decades of outrageous wealth. They let other people fight for them, whether it be the Americans or jihadists.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: Taiwan in stealth technology breakthrough: report

US has pulled out of Iraq already. Military contractors remain.

That's just for the headline and largely symbolic. There are no 'combat' troops in Iraq, but there is still significant US military assets and personnel tied down there still.

As for Afghanistan, they have also started pulling out. The 1st phase of pull out was pulling back the "surge" troops. Now, they are preparing for more pull outs with the handing over of security duties to Afghan troops/police. They certainly aren't waiting until Afghanistan is rebuilt before pulling out.

Again, largely for the home crowd. There are still huge numbers of American military personnel and assets tied down and will likely remain so for some time despite what the politicians say to appease the home audience.

And the PLA will also need to mass it forces across from ROC before they can mount an invasion.

Are you assuming that PLA:
1. Don't need to mass forces to successfully invade ROC? Or
2. US will not pick up PLA massing its forces?
3. US will not react to PLA forces massing across from ROC?

The opening move of any PLA plan to re-take Taiwan will not involve them sailing huge numbers of men and equipment across the straight.

China probably have sufficient ground forces stationed within a few days of Taiwan to take the island, and enough to take the island several times over can be moved into striking position within a matter of days, a week at worst. This is a fight on China's doorstep do not forget.

If the PLA wants to take Taiwan, it will need to take out its defenses first. The 2nd Artillery already have vast numbers of missiles stationed within striking distance of Taiwan. These missiles can be fired without having to leave their home bases in many cases.

It's a similar case with the air force. Much of the force needed to take the island can strike from their home bases. Maybe not all and additional forces would need to be mobilized and brought in to take the island, but for the opening strike, the units already in striking range should more than suffice.

It will take time to weaken Taiwan's defenses enough for a landing to become a viable option, and the full mobilisation can take place then.

Given how close Taiwan is to China, with modern weapons, they could be very little pre-warning of an attack.

Don't need to bomb the crap out of Iran. Just need to take out the nuclear facilities.

Israel did it decades ago on Iraq with the Osirak raid. And Israel allegedly repeated it to Syria a few years back.


If that was a serious option I am sure they would have taken it by now. The Iranians learnt from Saddam's folly and has gone out of their way to spread out their work and have back up facilities for back-up facilities to make it almost impossible to take out its nuclear programme from the air with any confidence.

As I mentioned before, you are welcome to try and bomb their bomb, but chances are you will never fully eradicate it and will have to come back and do it all over again a decade or some further down the line.

In the meantime, extremely dangerous materials and advanced weapons might just go walkies in Iran because of 'all the confusion for the western attacks', and find their way into the hands of Al-Q or other global jihadists desperate to strike at the west.

Attacking Iran will open a massive can of worms, especially if you leave the job half done, and could easily result in one of the main fears behind the decision to go to war (that nuclear materials might find its way into the hands of terrorists and be used to attack the west) becoming reality.

You either leave Iran the well alone, or you go in to utterly remove all the nuclear, chemical and biological weapons material in the country. Since the west does not have the stomach for that kind of commitment, any attack on Iran will ultimately prove counter-productive to the west's goals and interests in the long run.

Syria is in a completely different league to Iran or Iraq and could not afford anywhere close to the scale of Iran's nuclear efforts.

And what stops them from doing this anyway (regardless of invasion or not)?

The fact that if they do release WMD material to terrorists and it was used in an attack, or even captured, the materials will ultimately be traced to Iran, and that will almost certainly lead to war.

It's the same principle as MAD. Iran dissuade the west from military adventurism with the veiled threat that an attack might lead to dangerous materials going 'missing'. The west discourages Iran from 'misplacing' such materials normally with the threat of attack if that happened. As soon as one side plays their hand, it would free the other from any restraint.

Why can't the boots on the ground come from Saudi? Or Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) members? I'm pretty sure Iraq will be quite glad to have boots on the ground in Iran.

Well not if you actually want to win.

And as McCool already pointed out, the GCC is massively out of its league trying to mess with Iran American military support or not.
 
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