PLA Strategy in a Taiwan Contingency

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
I'm a little alarmed at how easily nuclear weapons and using them gets brought up in this thread. And yes, US would send nuke against any country nuking its allies. Let's not get ourselves into hypothetical armageddon kind of scenarios.
But we have to. Nuclear weapons exist, and not including them in our analysis leaves it at best incomplete. Rick's analysis of a war of attrition is detailed and well thought through, but it is completely inapplicable to reality because it ignores the existence of nuclear weapons.

The terms "China" and "mutually assured destruction" need to be much more closely correlated throughout America's decision-making apparatus and among its public. China should helpfully load its new silos when it knows American spy satellites are overhead so they can take nice, clear pictures, and it should make sure its plutonium reactors are always puffing big clouds of steam from their cooling towers. Every piece of evidence America collects should indicate that China is greatly expanding its arsenal, because that's what should be happening.
 

nugroho

Junior Member
"Please elaborate on this"
"Give me some numbers"

So, do you want to me literally give you the entire way in which I would expect the PLAAF and PLAN and PLARF to be deployed during a western pacific conflict arising from a PLA invasion of Taiwan, as well as the way in which USAF and USN forces would be deployed, and the forces PLAAF and PLARF forces the PLA would have to support a Korean War operation?
Do you also expect me to come up with the variety of plausible timings in which the various main players would conduct offensive and defensive actions, in addition to the above, and to justify all of them?


I can't do so to that level of detail, I don't have the time and I don't have the patience to do so (unless someone wants to pay me to do it, I suppose, and I'll be charging competitive rates).

But sure, I'll give you the cliffnotes version.
- I expect 3/4s of the PLAs tactical fighter force and their corresponding force multipliers (AEW&C, EW/ECM, ELINT/SIGINT) to be deployed to the Eastern and Southern Theater Commands and 80% of the PLA's bomber force deployed/operating in support of missions in those respective theaters and areas of responsibility. That leaves 1/3rd (at most) of the PLA's remaining tactical fighter force to complete the rest of its missions, including but not limited to -- supporting this idiotic Korean ground offensive, but also to keep a sufficient force in play to deter India on the western approach and conducting an air defense mission in central China.
- I expect 3/4s of the PLARF's SRBM force to have been deployed in support of a Taiwan contingency/invasion (that would have already occurred at this point), and virtually all of the PLARF's IRBM force deployed in support of strikes against US positions in the western pacific (Guam, but also air bases in Japan, and of course most importantly the AShBMs against US carriers).
- I expect the vast majority of the PLAN to be deployed in the Eastern and Southern Theaters in support of the overall western pacific conflict. A token force would remain in the North.
- I expect PLA IADS forces to be redeployed and frontloaded to areas in the Eastern and Southern Theaters as well as to protect Beijing.
- I expect a significant of portion of PLA amphibious capable units to have been redeployed at readiness to the Eastern Theater Command at inland staging locations to be in site for a potential Taiwan amphibious crossing that might occur at any time over the following months or year, pending the outcome of the initial stages of a western pacific conflict with the US.


So, based on all that, the remaining forces that the PLA have left in terms of PLAAF, PLARF, PLAN, IADS are the ones that they will have to support any sort of PLA ground force that they deploy to conduct an attack on the Korean peninsula, and this is keeping in mind that all of the above redeployments to the Eastern and Western Theater Commands will have taken up substantial capacity for China's internal transport network (even before we talk about any potential US strikes against China's transport infrastructure).

Of course, the PLA could certainly try to deploy more of the PLAAF and PLARF and IADS in support of a Korea operation -- but that means substantially weakening their ability to carry out operations in the much more important theater of the western pacific air-naval-missile conflict.



Frankly I am in awe that you are asking me to even elaborate on this.
Perhaps you should first state your position to let me know if I should even spend time on this -- with the PLA's current overall forces, how well do you think they would fare against the US in a western pacific air-naval-missile conflict to begin with, and based on that, how many air and missile forces do you think they would have to spare to support an offensive into Korea at the same time?


Look, if you are genuinely interested, let me give you my distilled position on this suggestion of "carrying out an offensive against Korea simultaneously as a western pacific conflict against the US is occurring for the purposes of trying to start a new front and carry out a war of attrition":
It is stupid, and would cause China to lose the war faster.

If my arguments and logic is worth anything to people who read my writing, then they would be able to take that conclusion and start to do some legwork and use some effort to understand how that conclusion is reached (it isn't difficult, and I've basically already explained the principles out to people repeatedly).


This entire discussion about a war of attrition can be settled if people just recognize that in general, the idea of the PLA waging a war of attrition against the US arising from a Taiwan invasion, with the forces the PLA has at its disposal, is complete and utter fantasy.
Sir, you predict the war of attrition in a very detailed way, but all were military.
Since you are very sure US will win in the war of attrition against China , have you counted economic factors?
How many trillion USD must be printed to finance the war ?
In a very fragile economy, can US sustain it ?
After printing the money, inflation will go double or triple-digit in US ? Will US risk that ? Will US investors accept crashes in wall street in a patriotic way ?
China's economy will suffer too, really nobody win in a war, but it has the ability to absorb the economic disaster quicker than US
Please consider.
 

luosifen

Senior Member
Registered Member
I'm not sure how Blitzo arrives at a conclusion that the USA wins a conventional war of attrition when even the US war planners in multiple supercomputer simulations indicate them losing badly in all realistic scenarios and the one simulation where they gave themselves futuretech and stacked the odds in their favour the result was the PLA still taking half of Taiwan.
 

james smith esq

Senior Member
Registered Member
I'm not sure how Blitzo arrives at a conclusion that the USA wins a conventional war of attrition when even the US war planners in multiple supercomputer simulations indicate them losing badly in all realistic scenarios and the one simulation where they gave themselves futuretech and stacked the odds in their favour the result was the PLA still taking half of Taiwan.
I don’t know, but I don’t think that those simulations modeled total-war as Bltizo’s scenario does. My assumption is that the Taiwan contingency will not be a total war.

No, twenty-first century, electrified society/economy could survive an extensive disruption of power grid function for months, let alone years. After only two weeks social order would begin to break-down and domestic chaos would take precedent over international ambitions. One thing I can predict, and with great, even supreme, confidence, is that the US military personnel numbers aren’t anywhere near sufficient to maintain domestic order if this shithole goes down.
 

ecaedus

New Member
Registered Member
i think Blitzo's attrition theory rests on the fact that he does not believe DF26 and DF21 can reliably and continuously hit high value targets ie aircraft carriers parked in the middle of first and second island chain during a time of war. meaning the whole A2/AD concept that the PLAN and PLAAF has been practicing ever since the 96 tw strait crisis is at best half baked and won't be effective during heavy conflict.

Now going forward with this premise, one can easily deduce that based on the current quantity (nvm quality) of PLAN and AF forces, china cannot win a sustained sea and air campaign against the deployable westpac US and Allied forces. this shouldn't be controversial since i don't believe anyone on this forum thinks the current strength of PLAN is enough, imo it's nowhere near enough to contend with the US in westpac and SCS, PLAN still needs major, sustained expansion for years to come.

the second premise of not being able to win a war of attrition is because china has not yet proved it has enough deployed nukes to guarantee MAD. (also the fact that current PLAN SSBN is at least one gen behind USN equivalents). so personally i strongly support an expansion of nuclear arsenal with updates to the delivery platforms. i also assume no one thinks the current number of nukes china has is "enough", imo again it's painfully not enough to ensure MAD.

now with x8 CATOBAR carrier groups + MAD capabilities + updated DF26/21, china can comfortably invade and hold TW and fend off any US and allied forces in the westpac with no worry of losing. personally, i believe 2050 - 60 china will have this capability if not sooner.
 

james smith esq

Senior Member
Registered Member
i think Blitzo's attrition theory rests on the fact that he does not believe DF26 and DF21 can reliably and continuously hit high value targets ie aircraft carriers parked in the middle of first and second island chain during a time of war. meaning the whole A2/AD concept that the PLAN and PLAAF has been practicing ever since the 96 tw strait crisis is at best half baked and won't be effective during heavy conflict.

Now going forward with this premise, one can easily deduce that based on the current quantity (nvm quality) of PLAN and AF forces, china cannot win a sustained sea and air campaign against the deployable westpac US and Allied forces. this shouldn't be controversial since i don't believe anyone on this forum thinks the current strength of PLAN is enough, imo it's nowhere near enough to contend with the US in westpac and SCS, PLAN still needs major, sustained expansion for years to come.

the second premise of not being able to win a war of attrition is because china has not yet proved it has enough deployed nukes to guarantee MAD. (also the fact that current PLAN SSBN is at least one gen behind USN equivalents). so personally i strongly support an expansion of nuclear arsenal with updates to the delivery platforms. i also assume no one thinks the current number of nukes china has is "enough", imo again it's painfully not enough to ensure MAD.

now with x8 CATOBAR carrier groups + MAD capabilities + updated DF26/21, china can comfortably invade and hold TW and fend off any US and allied forces in the westpac with no worry of losing. personally, i believe 2050 - 60 china will have this capability if not sooner.
I still say that the emphasis on targeting the weapons platforms as opposed to the weapon-systems has became an outdated defensive approach. Why try to defeat them at their range when you can defeat them at your range? To me, 3-4 125 km ranged SAMs makes much more sense than 1 400 km ranged SAM, especially when, at 400 km, most platforms will have already launched their payloads.

However, with MAD capability, China could invade Taiwan with a fleet of Junks and its remaining J-7s, J-8s, JH-7s, and Q-5s!
 
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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
i think Blitzo's attrition theory rests on the fact that he does not believe DF26 and DF21 can reliably and continuously hit high value targets ie aircraft carriers parked in the middle of first and second island chain during a time of war. meaning the whole A2/AD concept that the PLAN and PLAAF has been practicing ever since the 96 tw strait crisis is at best half baked and won't be effective during heavy conflict.

Now going forward with this premise, one can easily deduce that based on the current quantity (nvm quality) of PLAN and AF forces, china cannot win a sustained sea and air campaign against the deployable westpac US and Allied forces. this shouldn't be controversial since i don't believe anyone on this forum thinks the current strength of PLAN is enough, imo it's nowhere near enough to contend with the US in westpac and SCS, PLAN still needs major, sustained expansion for years to come.

the second premise of not being able to win a war of attrition is because china has not yet proved it has enough deployed nukes to guarantee MAD. (also the fact that current PLAN SSBN is at least one gen behind USN equivalents). so personally i strongly support an expansion of nuclear arsenal with updates to the delivery platforms. i also assume no one thinks the current number of nukes china has is "enough", imo again it's painfully not enough to ensure MAD.

now with x8 CATOBAR carrier groups + MAD capabilities + updated DF26/21, china can comfortably invade and hold TW and fend off any US and allied forces in the westpac with no worry of losing. personally, i believe 2050 - 60 china will have this capability if not sooner.
These are all major assumptions and it doesn't take 30-40 years to build 8 CATOBAR CVs either.

US built 4x Forrestal and 4x Kitty Hawk class in 15 years during the Cold War with far lower share of global shipbuilding.

First Forrestal class launched 1952, followed by 3x more by 1958.

First Kitty Hawk class launched in 1961, followed by 3x more by 1967.

Neither were these disposable or temporary. Each of them lasted 40 years and the last Kitty Hawk class was only decommissioned in 2009.

If 003 proves successful in sea trials then we'll likely see 5x more 003s by 2035 if built 1 at a time (begin construction 2024, launches in 2026, 2028, 2030, 2032, 2034) and by 2030 if built 2 at a time (2x construction in 2024, launches in 2026-2027, 2x construction 2026, launches 2028-2029, 1x construction 2028, launches 2030).

Construction will likely be faster due to modular fabrication and less costly due to economies of scale with civilian shipping.

Again note how I used historical facts to support my argument rather than just toss out numbers.
 

ecaedus

New Member
Registered Member
These are all major assumptions and it doesn't take 30-40 years to build 8 CATOBAR CVs either.
i think it'll become clearer as we see 004/5's program cycle, from laying down to getting deployed in completed CV battle groups. i agree with your point that CVs can be built very rapidly, but just having CVs isn't enough. i'd be more happy to see 8 carrier groups fully deployed in 2050 than just 8 CVs being completed by 2030.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
i think it'll become clearer as we see 004/5's program cycle, from laying down to getting deployed in completed CV battle groups. i agree with your point that CVs can be built very rapidly, but just having CVs isn't enough. i'd be more happy to see 8 carrier groups fully deployed in 2050 than just 8 CVs being completed by 2030.
Historically this wasn't the case. US went to jet CV operations in less than 10 years after WW2. Jet operations are completely different than propeller plane operations so it is basically starting from scratch.

PLAN already has a decade of jet CV operations. PLAN also already has more than enough escorts.
 
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