PLA Small arms

MwRYum

MwRYum

Major
TerraN_EmpirE said:
I can see a potential use in the PLA doctrine however given that they have to patrol along the Hindu Kush range and have elected to use the "Universal Cartridge" concept based around the 5.8x42mm for Carbine, DMR, IAR and LMG. In the event they were forced to engage enemy forces using PK series or weapons firing 7.62x51mm NATO like the FAL or G11 or 7.62x54R like the mosin nagant or SDV there infantry units would be at a disadvantage in terms of range if elements of said infantry had access to a Q11 team that would close the range gap and allow destruction of the enemy threat.
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That's the problem with PLA's squad small arms loadout, which would be more or less alleviated if at least a 7.62mm LMG and proper sniper rifle is introduced into the mix, but none of the above is available with existing models...they need a real war to finally shake off the assessment-oriented mindset when comes to getting weapons.

And the QLU-11 is too big and heavy for those long-range foot patrols scenario you suggested.
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Its not limited to the PLA the issue is also applicable to US / NATO/ANA forces' in Afghanistan. Where the conventional 7.62x51mm NATO round issued to all but some snipers and vehicles is out ranged by the older longer range 7.62x54mmR
 
plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
TerraN_EmpirE said:
The explosive power of a grenade round tends to be exaggerated alot. I have seen footage of a real high explosive 40x46mm Nato round which would be larger then either the Q11 or ZH05 fired against modern body armor on a range with targets around it. The the burst was small the fragmentation limited to a area of 2-3 meters and the body armor remained undefeated. The spread and damage only effected the closest target which was armored meaning the wound effects weren't critical. Basically short of a direct hit its not that impressive unless you can get a reflection of the blast effects. If your looking for shear explosive then a hand grenade is your best bet.
Grenade launchers were created to provide a longer range grenade delivery method then was available via either hand thrown or rifle grenade fire. With out having to setup mortars.
The original OICW was meant to offer a rapid follow on via semi automatic grenade fire and controlled burst. This succeeded to a point but came at the cost of excessive weight. The US army then resorted to the XM25 but seems more or less to have shelved it due to issues of continuing weight (made worse by having to carry a M4A1 along side it) and a safety failure a few years back. Instead they seem to be moving to air burst 40mm rounds.
The South Koreans developed the K11 based on a bolt action repeater which solved the weight issue to a degree bit still uses small rounds.
To put it in perspective the XM29,K11 and ZH05 all use(d) low velocity 20mm rounds mmmmkay... A 12 gauge shot gun conforms to 18mm low velocity rounds. So the shell is just slightly bigger in payload then a 12gauge.
Hence the emphasis on aiming assistance computer systems. If you can put the 20mm round on the targets bellybutton he cannot survive without severe injury.
Q11 seems to be based on the idea of trying to optimize the airburst to urban or perhaps mountain sniper fire. Where a mortar shell might take the wall the Q11 would punch through window.
Being realistic I just cant see Q11 at the Squad level for general infantry. A sniper or marksman unit fine. But this is a specialized tactical tool for longer ranges not easily man portable.
I can see a potential use in the PLA doctrine however given that they have to patrol along the Hindu Kush range and have elected to use the "Universal Cartridge" concept based around the 5.8x42mm for Carbine, DMR, IAR and LMG. In the event they were forced to engage enemy forces using PK series or weapons firing 7.62x51mm NATO like the FAL or G11 or 7.62x54R like the mosin nagant or SDV there infantry units would be at a disadvantage in terms of range if elements of said infantry had access to a Q11 team that would close the range gap and allow destruction of the enemy threat.
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Ah, but I think you are forgetting something crutial in your assessment - the main killing power of grenades (and other HE ordinance) comes from the high intensity pressure wave as much, if not more so, than from shrapnel.

In your example, those solid dummies might have not been fatally pierced, but if they wre living targets with squishy internal organs, they would still all have expired from their internal organs all having been mushed.

I think this would be a good example of why militaries like the PLA still conduct a lot of live tests on livestock during their weapons testing phase.
 
plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I think deadliest warriors did a few grenade tests during some of their match-ups, and used 38G and 100G shock pads to test for blast effect.

The kill radius for conventional hand grenades shock effect was between 10-15 feet iirc.

Those hand grenades were heavier, but they didn't air burst, so much of their force was wasted being directed against the ground. Conservatively, I think an air bursting grenade would have a similar kill radius for shock wave only.

That means that if the grenade detonated within 3-5 metres of you, you are a goner irrespective of what armour you had on, and whether any shrapnel got through your plate.

With an airbursting smart grenade, you get much better aim and control that a hand grenade or conventional grenade launcher, making it significantly more likely you will be able to put your round on target and have it donated inside that 3-5m sweet spot.

I think it is worth stressing that smart grenade launchers are not area effect weapons. You might get lucky and take out 2 or 3 guys if they were clustered close together, but typically, you will be using smart grenades to take out single guys behind hard cover.
 
SteelBird

SteelBird

Colonel
New type of sub machine gun for police. The label says CF11; however, I google it and found nothing. Very similar to MP5, huh?
LP8Vj7x.jpg

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3UmYWC9.jpg

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qQWiakq.jpg
 
A

ahho

Junior Member
SteelBird said:
New type of sub machine gun for police. The label says CF11; however, I google it and found nothing. Very similar to MP5, huh?
LP8Vj7x.jpg

nhOC8Nx.jpg

3UmYWC9.jpg

SFggDgj.jpg

qQWiakq.jpg
Click to expand...

The first one does look like an MP5 (Norinco does make MP5 clone and sold it to foreign police and civilian market), but the second rifle looks like a Sig MPX. On the right hand side of the gun, it seems like a bolt lock, I wonder if it uses gas piston
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
ahho said:
The first one does look like an MP5 (Norinco does make MP5 clone and sold it to foreign police and civilian market), but the second rifle looks like a Sig MPX. On the right hand side of the gun, it seems like a bolt lock, I wonder if it uses gas piston
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it does have features from both the MPX and the MP5. But until we see the guts its up for debate on how it works. Personally though I think it might be like The Hk SMG-2 prototype. A MP5 in a new skin with changes meant to make it more modern and contemporary.
 
MwRYum

MwRYum

Major
SteelBird said:
New type of sub machine gun for police. The label says CF11; however, I google it and found nothing. Very similar to MP5, huh?


SFggDgj.jpg

qQWiakq.jpg
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MP5's patent has long expired so that's why there's so many knockoffs coming up from all over the world, no surprise there, so I won't be surprised underneath it's still a MP5 mechanically.

But what's certain is that, China still makes zero progress in the realm of optics.
 
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