TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
more or less. Where a Hammer Comes in at a Angle to induce the Firing pin. a Striker comes straight in.
PLA Small arms
- Thread starter Vanguard1688
- Start date
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
MwRYum
Major
Looking back, those exhibitions shows how the Chinese small arms designs evolved throughout the last decade. Sure they could adopt Western designs and features into their own, but the military still just as slow in adopting new ideas to throw out obsolete ideas still using today...or wacky ones like that humongous "smart grenade" launcher...
shen
Senior Member
are you talking about the LG5? why do you think it is wacky?
MwRYum
Major
The US tried out similar stuff such as the XM109 but ultimately dropped the idea altogether...it's more as a counter-enfilade weapon but lacks the firepower as a suppressing weapon, which a grenade launcher usually associated for. And even as a counter-enfilade weapon, it's usually done with rocket launcher or recoilless rifle.
I think the idea of QLU-11/LG5 and also ZH-05, and other similar smart grenade type weapons is to increase reduce engagement times by suppressing the enemy with other conventional weapons and use smart grenades to kill them while they're behind cover rather than trying to maneuvre around the enemy's cover and kill them which is more time consuming.
Personally I think it is an intriguing idea, if the electronics of the weapons and their munitions are reliable, if the munitions themselves have sufficient killing power, and if the entire armament isn't too heavy.
I'm not sure what you men by QLU-11 being a counter-enfilade weapon.
MwRYum
Major
The C-OICW (many noted that the ZH-05 designation is wrong, but nobody bothered to correct it on Wiki) is sound, assign to a designated grenadier in the squad with a weapon that won't deminish the squad's total automatic firepower output (in short, a fancier grenade launcher attachment, in BF4 terminology); but the bulk of the QLU-11 would in reality need 2 crewmen to serve it, as you'd need another member of the squad to carry the extra ammo.
Also, the whole smart munition thing has a lot of "if" there, as you've clearly demonstrated, but China ain't in the habit of doing some - or any - multiple live rounds demonstrations to prove their worth.
Well until a better designation comes along ZH-05 is still the name to go.
The way I see it, your doubts regarding QLU-11 is dependent on how effective the smart munition is and whether it would impede a standard squad by forcing another soldier to carry ammo.
We know the PLA have tested the ZH-05's 20mm grenade against various other means from grenades to small mortars and came away impressed, I fail to see why they wouldn't do so for QLU-11 as well. I'm also not sure why you believe the PLA wouldn't vigorously test live rounds during the trial phase of these kinds of new weapons.
And even if another soldier in a squad has to carry ammo, that doesn't mean they can't be unarmed lacking an assault rifle or even a SMG. The drawbacks of another soldier carrying ammo really depends on how effective QLU-11 is as a weapon.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
The explosive power of a grenade round tends to be exaggerated alot. I have seen footage of a real high explosive 40x46mm Nato round which would be larger then either the Q11 or ZH05 fired against modern body armor on a range with targets around it. The the burst was small the fragmentation limited to a area of 2-3 meters and the body armor remained undefeated. The spread and damage only effected the closest target which was armored meaning the wound effects weren't critical. Basically short of a direct hit its not that impressive unless you can get a reflection of the blast effects. If your looking for shear explosive then a hand grenade is your best bet.
Grenade launchers were created to provide a longer range grenade delivery method then was available via either hand thrown or rifle grenade fire. With out having to setup mortars.
The original OICW was meant to offer a rapid follow on via semi automatic grenade fire and controlled burst. This succeeded to a point but came at the cost of excessive weight. The US army then resorted to the XM25 but seems more or less to have shelved it due to issues of continuing weight (made worse by having to carry a M4A1 along side it) and a safety failure a few years back. Instead they seem to be moving to air burst 40mm rounds.
The South Koreans developed the K11 based on a bolt action repeater which solved the weight issue to a degree bit still uses small rounds.
To put it in perspective the XM29,K11 and ZH05 all use(d) low velocity 20mm rounds mmmmkay... A 12 gauge shot gun conforms to 18mm low velocity rounds. So the shell is just slightly bigger in payload then a 12gauge.
Hence the emphasis on aiming assistance computer systems. If you can put the 20mm round on the targets bellybutton he cannot survive without severe injury.
Q11 seems to be based on the idea of trying to optimize the airburst to urban or perhaps mountain sniper fire. Where a mortar shell might take the wall the Q11 would punch through window.
Being realistic I just cant see Q11 at the Squad level for general infantry. A sniper or marksman unit fine. But this is a specialized tactical tool for longer ranges not easily man portable.
I can see a potential use in the PLA doctrine however given that they have to patrol along the Hindu Kush range and have elected to use the "Universal Cartridge" concept based around the 5.8x42mm for Carbine, DMR, IAR and LMG. In the event they were forced to engage enemy forces using PK series or weapons firing 7.62x51mm NATO like the FAL or G11 or 7.62x54R like the mosin nagant or SDV there infantry units would be at a disadvantage in terms of range if elements of said infantry had access to a Q11 team that would close the range gap and allow destruction of the enemy threat.
Grenade launchers were created to provide a longer range grenade delivery method then was available via either hand thrown or rifle grenade fire. With out having to setup mortars.
The original OICW was meant to offer a rapid follow on via semi automatic grenade fire and controlled burst. This succeeded to a point but came at the cost of excessive weight. The US army then resorted to the XM25 but seems more or less to have shelved it due to issues of continuing weight (made worse by having to carry a M4A1 along side it) and a safety failure a few years back. Instead they seem to be moving to air burst 40mm rounds.
The South Koreans developed the K11 based on a bolt action repeater which solved the weight issue to a degree bit still uses small rounds.
To put it in perspective the XM29,K11 and ZH05 all use(d) low velocity 20mm rounds mmmmkay... A 12 gauge shot gun conforms to 18mm low velocity rounds. So the shell is just slightly bigger in payload then a 12gauge.
Hence the emphasis on aiming assistance computer systems. If you can put the 20mm round on the targets bellybutton he cannot survive without severe injury.
Q11 seems to be based on the idea of trying to optimize the airburst to urban or perhaps mountain sniper fire. Where a mortar shell might take the wall the Q11 would punch through window.
Being realistic I just cant see Q11 at the Squad level for general infantry. A sniper or marksman unit fine. But this is a specialized tactical tool for longer ranges not easily man portable.
I can see a potential use in the PLA doctrine however given that they have to patrol along the Hindu Kush range and have elected to use the "Universal Cartridge" concept based around the 5.8x42mm for Carbine, DMR, IAR and LMG. In the event they were forced to engage enemy forces using PK series or weapons firing 7.62x51mm NATO like the FAL or G11 or 7.62x54R like the mosin nagant or SDV there infantry units would be at a disadvantage in terms of range if elements of said infantry had access to a Q11 team that would close the range gap and allow destruction of the enemy threat.
broadsword
Brigadier
I understand the Korean K11 was fielded in Afghanistan. Has there been any report about its performance or other similar weapons fielded by other forces? Did the Americans try out their own in actual combat?