PLA Small arms

TerraN_EmpirE said:

It'a shame because other wise the QBZ carbine is locked in the 1980's

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People who still stuck in the "glories" or Korean War and border skirmishes with Vietnam in the 1980s have difficulty in seeing the world that's essentially 30 years more advanced than them. They just need a new small and short war to get them up to speed.

Actually I was referring to the design not the mind set. Mindset places them maybe around early to late 90's as far as I can tell. Design is looking for a comparable counterpart outside of China. That's found in either the Bullpup stock retrofit for the Mini 14 or the Brazilian LAPA FA05. both are spitting images of the QBZ95. the biggest firearms change in the last 30 years is accessories. first with the Milstd1913 rails in the 1990's then the quad rail in the 2000's and finally with user configurable rail systems or power rails today.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Actually I was referring to the design not the mind set. Mindset places them maybe around early to late 90's as far as I can tell. Design is looking for a comparable counterpart outside of China. That's found in either the Bullpup stock retrofit for the Mini 14 or the Brazilian LAPA FA05. both are spitting images of the QBZ95. the biggest firearms change in the last 30 years is accessories. first with the Milstd1913 rails in the 1990's then the quad rail in the 2000's and finally with user configurable rail systems or power rails today.

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Well then, their problem in this department is that China has yet venture beyond the low-range market, as accessories is still something for the mid-and-up markets. Not saying they can't, but Norinco and Poly have yet put such products into the market.

The market is almost entirely American-driven IMO. It certainly is not coming from China, with private firearm ownership of 3 persons per 100,000 population. I don't see Norinco entering any non-existent China market, and it would have a hard time breaking into the American market given the typical gunowning redneck's feelings about Made in China products. Norinco would certainly make this stuff if the PLA demanded it, but as you guys pointed out, they are way behind the times. They could have easily copied the pic rail concept by now or introduced their own mil-std system, but their gadget attachments all look ad hoc even nowadays. What a shame. BTW here's one of my boomsticks for gits and shiggles:

Actually China has a number of makers already in country and many are Chinese owned. So the modifications are possible its just a case of want. At this point the PLA seems content to use its current system which is based upon PSO series updates mounted very high on the weapon. Now that's not without president.
the first accessories mounted to a rifle were the Bayonet. And for most of the last three hundred years that's all. In the late 1870s armies began mounting primitive telescopic sights for sniper use. They proved successful in the American civil war but were low power long and fragile a 3x powered sight would run from the muzzle of the gun to the rear sight. By the first world war sighting sniper rifles was really practical. By the second world war the first assault rifles emerged on the scene and the older rifle was now starting to take its place as sniper rifles. The Germans introduced the first low powered gun sights for assault rifles and red dots were rare but available. The Germans also introduced the first night vision systems for small arms. But by the 1950s most of it was gone. Night vision for rifles and sniper rifles stayed but the thought of other accessories was tossed.
in the 1960s as American troops landed in south east Asian marsh two new options popped up. Colt offered commercially a low powered scope that mounted to AR15 handles and out of South Africa Armscore offered a practical if crude eye gun sight that consists of little more then a glowing red dot on a white background. It worked by optical illusion and proved successful in the sun tay night raid. Also in trials was the experimental then XM203 and supressors for AR15s neither sight really stuck, after the conflicts only stayed for special forces. The M203 however became universal with knock offs popping up the world over. the 1970-1980s Russian Afghanistan war Spaznatz began mounting the PSOs from SVD rifles to there then new AKS74Ns.
also in the 1980s a movie came out in which a certain muscular Austrian Actor took the role of a machine sent from the future to kill a woman. In the movie this machine acquires a costom built stainless steel long barrel 1911 clone handgun called a ADM Hardball with a unique feature a California based company mounted a laser pointer to it via scope rings. Hidden from view however was the battery which was a pack on arnie's back. This early laser pointer was soon in study by the army but would still take years to make practical. A few years later this same muscular actor in the Mexican Jungle would be partnered with another experimental accessory when one of his costars M16s is fitted with a under barrel mounted shotgun. This setup would remain unique to SF for some time. In HK in Germany was experimenting with there Caseless ammo feed G11 and decided to try optical gun sights again to do this they produced a series based on there existing line of unique weapons ranging from there MP5 through there HK33, HK53, rifles to there belt fed machine guns. These introduced use of a integral optical gun sight and camouflage colors. Although it failed to sell. By the late 80s the European Armies of the west were buying Telescopic low power gunsights and broomstick fore grips for there weapons. It was not until the 1990s with the introduction of the M4 that the Us took a real interest and that was when a commercial maker modified a widely used scope rail to into a hand guard option for colt commandos. The Knights armaments company Rail integration System was born.
US socom requested that the carry Handel on there version of the M4 the M4A1 be removed in favor of this rail. In a budget move the Army decided to user the same upper receiver. the First generation of Sopmod was introduced the kit. It was still not until the new millennium that US troops began widely using accessories. By that time Europeans had been using optical scopes for over a decade. And the first ones seen on US weapons were either Israeli, Canadian, Swedish or from a little known American maker named Trijicon. Arnies laser pointer was practical by then and grew smaller along with it the same maker introduced a flashlight series that fit with scope rings to the kac rail Surefire was rapidly growing. Kac offered a vertical grip option to its rail system and suppressor to. From that point on it just kept growing. This lead to the US more or less taking over the industry by offerings but the Europeans have continued to also offer products. South Africa faded away as Armscor broke up. And Israel rose as its own production also proved popular particularly with there systems often mating duel functions a holographic sight with lasers for example.

now the PRC is not really forced out of the industry, and the drivers of it are not always civilian. Many of the accessory products are LE and Military only. They just seem to lack the interest even in there exports. They offer socom style rail systems on the CQ series but don't seem to use any themselves or offer much in the way of accessories other then a modified PSO based scope.

Solaris said:

The market is almost entirely American-driven IMO. It certainly is not coming from China, with private firearm ownership of 3 persons per 100,000 population. I don't see Norinco entering any non-existent China market, and it would have a hard time breaking into the American market given the typical gunowning redneck's feelings about Made in China products. Norinco would certainly make this stuff if the PLA demanded it, but as you guys pointed out, they are way behind the times. They could have easily copied the pic rail concept by now or introduced their own mil-std system, but their gadget attachments all look ad hoc even nowadays. What a shame. BTW here's one of my boomsticks for gits and shiggles:

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Nice! Have fun cleaning it and getting all that carbine out after firing and dis assembling that rifle. I know it took me 4 hrs to clean my M1A2 to US Army standard.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Actually China has a number of makers already in country and many are Chinese owned. So the modifications are possible its just a case of want. At this point the PLA seems content to use its current system which is based upon PSO series updates mounted very high on the weapon. Now that's not without president.

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Which makers in what country? I own 10 firearms and no accessories I use are Chinese manufacturers, not because I don't want Chinese products but there are literally none. I'm sure at least a few of the low end accessories are physically made in China, but there are no actual Chinese brands to speak of. People here know pretty much only one brand, NORINCO, and they know it as the manufacturer of cheap Soviet era small arms (e.g. SKS). As far as accessories go, not a single one that I know of.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

now the PRC is not really forced out of the industry, and the drivers of it are not always civilian. Many of the accessory products are LE and Military only. They just seem to lack the interest even in there exports. They offer socom style rail systems on the CQ series but don't seem to use any themselves or offer much in the way of accessories other then a modified PSO based scope.

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PRC is not really forced out of the industry so much as never been a part of the industry. As far as mil/LE-only products, these are few and far between compared to the large gamut of offerings available to the civilian market. The guns are all here, the 2nd Amendment is only here, and the gun culture is uniquely American. The American civilian market is the largest market on the planet, especially if we are talking about firearm accessories.

, Manufacture China, Ownership US
product Red dot

Beijing Lu Bin vision,

Yiwu Wisdom Optics Co., Ltd

XunLei Technoloy Co Laser sights

Guangzhou Ke Long Optronics
These are a few I can conform, But there have to be more. And some are very questionable. lots of clones and cheap knock offs have been coming in from the PRC over the years. That is part of the reason why there are so little Chinese made in the US.

Incidentally
A write up of the type 05 revolver's ammo

TerraN_EmpirE said:

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, Manufacture China, Ownership US
product Red dot

Beijing Lu Bin vision,

Yiwu Wisdom Optics Co., Ltd

XunLei Technoloy Co

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Laser sights

Guangzhou Ke Long Optronics
These are a few I can conform, But there have to be more. And some are very questionable. lots of clones and cheap knock offs have been coming in from the PRC over the years. That is part of the reason why there are so little Chinese made in the US.

Incidentally

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A write up of the type 05 revolver's ammo

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I was curious, so I did a supplier/product search on Alibaba.com for Picatinny rails and optical sights, and wow, I got thousands of hits out of Mainland China. Of course, as you said, many are knockoff products, non-military grade, or suppliers with no R&D capabilities.

BUT.

The sheer number of suppliers and products on offer tells me that a robust industrial base is there for firearm accessories, and should the Chinese military opt for fancy rails and red dot sights in the future, it'll have no problem whatsoever arming the troops with something decent.

Red dot sights on Alibaba:



Optical scopes:



Picatinny rails related:

Solaris said:

PRC is not really forced out of the industry so much as never been a part of the industry. As far as mil/LE-only products, these are few and far between compared to the large gamut of offerings available to the civilian market. The guns are all here, the 2nd Amendment is only here, and the gun culture is uniquely American. The American civilian market is the largest market on the planet, especially if we are talking about firearm accessories.

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Okay so we covered the first half now as to the second. Sol let me let you in on a little secret. Europeans love guns.
Germany and France have legal civilian guns.
Turkey and Italy have legal civilian guns.
Israel, and Switzerland Love guns.
Austrians own guns.
Russians have a booming civilian gun industry.
Canadians love guns
So where does that no gun European myth come from? England. The English killed there entire gun industry and tossed them all away. And not only for themselves most of the commonwealth did the same. And what happened? Gun crime remains. Because when the gun became illegal those that kept them became criminals and when the civilians who obey the gun laws tuned there's in the Criminals rejoiced and kept their guns. Knowing that chances of being resisted dropped.
Legal gun ownership is not unique to the US. Its just not talked about or as free elsewhere.
In the US we enjoy the second Amendment and yes have a wide wide choice. But we are not unique in that. Remember those QBZ97 mods are Canadian. That's because if you were living in Canada you could buy one.