PLA next/6th generation fighter thread

[siegecrossbow]

Likely to be something like Loyal wingman drones as the more clearcut advantage (afterall, it's a 2 seater, and one thing for the 2nd pilot is definitely drone control).

At the end of the day, we really can't say much, since we don't have that much information, although it should be the case that the J-20B over the J-20A should have many improvements (like blitzo said, one can see the A as being late 00s tech, while B should be late 10s tech, and we know how much tech wise China has improved in just those years).

That is speculation though, but we really don’t know for certain whether any of this is true for the J-20B when J-20S is rumored to be the mothership.

For me personally use of AI and further refinement of the OODA cycle are a must for 5.5th gen definition.

 

[TK3600]

That is speculation though, but we really don’t know for certain whether any of this is true for the J-20B when J-20S is rumored to be the mothership.

For me personally use of AI and further refinement of the OODA cycle are a must for 5.5th gen definition.

Why not J-20BS. There can be improved version of two seaters taking advantage of new techs.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Why not J-20BS. There can be improved version of two seaters taking advantage of new techs.

J-20S already has the same tech as J-20B. As per Yankee there have been very significant changes happening under the hood, comparable to differences between J-11BS and J-16.

 

[phrozenflame]

Likely to be something like Loyal wingman drones as the more clearcut advantage (afterall, it's a 2 seater, and one thing for the 2nd pilot is definitely drone control).

At the end of the day, we really can't say much, since we don't have that much information, although it should be the case that the J-20B over the J-20A should have many improvements (like blitzo said, one can see the A as being late 00s tech, while B should be late 10s tech, and we know how much tech wise China has improved in just those years).

Tbh Loyal wingmen could be even added to modernized 4.5 gen fighters if you stretch it, but I don't see any bottlenecks where F-35 can't integrate those.

 

[Gloire_bb]

Tbh Loyal wingmen could be even added to modernized 4.5 gen fighters if you stretch it, but I don't see any bottlenecks where F-35 can't integrate those.

Frankly speaking, it isn't immediately obvious why J-20A wouldn't be able to - and if there is any need to separate J-20A/B/S this way.

Yes, it hardware level may be lower, but the necessary hardware is still in place (which is mostly about positioning/synchronization, directional high-bandwidth datalinks, and pilot interface). Processing power/software may be updated...and the rest is on the LW side of the question.

The only 5th gen a/c which visibly can't (without recently shown datalink pods=bye stealth, hi drag) is once again the F-22. Which, despite its personality cult (same joke about generation-generating interns) and undeniable brute power capability is in many ways closer to its 2000s counterparts (Eurocanards etc), just passive x-band LO instead of a reduced frontal signature&elaborate EW ... and development potential.

 

[Atomicfrog]

Frankly speaking, it isn't immediately obvious why J-20A wouldn't be able to - and if there is any need to separate J-20A/B/S this way.

Yes, it hardware level may be lower, but the necessary hardware is still in place (which is mostly about positioning/synchronization, directional high-bandwidth datalinks, and pilot interface). Processing power/software may be updated...and the rest is on the LW side of the question.

The only 5th gen a/c which visibly can't (without recently shown datalink pods=bye stealth, hi drag) is once again the F-22. Which, despite its personality cult (same joke about generation-generating interns) and undeniable brute power capability is in many ways closer to its 2000s counterparts (Eurocanards etc), just passive x-band LO instead of a reduced frontal signature&elaborate EW ... and development potential.

They are planning to cut F-22 soon anyway, retiring them in 2030 probably, cutted the fleet to 150 last year. They even removed it from the new data sharing system (ABMS Capability Release 1). Maybe it will be adapted later if they decide to upgrade them for the little life they have left.

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J-20 and F-22 will probably never meet. It will be J-20 vs F-35 for a while, 6th generation design have some time to spare.

 

[tamsen_ikard]

5.5 gen do not exist it is an arbitrary name for the capability I described. Lastly we don't know if NGAD will be 6th gen as we understood the word. For all we know they called B-21 6th gen.

The existence of loyal wing man drone needs to be defined yes. At the most basic level it can function autonomously for reconaissance even a J-7 could get one. But that is not what I refered to when I say compatible. I expect a much deeper integration than that. It may or may not need another pilot to command the drones giving complex orders. To do so a series of training, compute power, and software must exist on the aircraft to optimise the command power. I suspect latest twin seat J-20 had it in mind when designing it.

That actually brings the question of how much of a tech leap is a 6th gen air craft compared to 5th gen? The gap between 4th and 5th gen is huge because of a fundamental focus on stealth with internal bays. That is the defining characteristic of 5th gen. There are other capabilities that could also be considered as part of 5th gen like super-cruise, networking, sensor fusion. But even 4th gen aircraft can have/already does have those capabilities by upgrading their engines, avionics, computers and so on. So they are only secondary capabilities of 5th gen aircraft.

Compared to the 5th gen what will be the defining characteristic of 6th gen? Just the fact that it will not have vertical stabilizers? but even Yf-23 did not have a pure vertical stabilizer.

Other than that, everything else can be easily ported to 5th gen, even 4th gen fighters.

Things like

loyal wingman drone? Even 4th gen can control those
More networking? 4th gen can do it with minor changes
Optional pilotless flight? 4th gen can do it again with minor changes

It seems other than improving stealth more by using even more stealthy shaping in the front and back, the 6th gen aircraft does not have any other defining characteristic. So, 6th gen it seems is a more incremental change compared to the game changing nature of 4th to 5th gen transition

 

[TK3600]

That actually brings the question of how much of a tech leap is a 6th gen air craft compared to 5th gen? The gap between 4th and 5th gen is huge because of a fundamental focus on stealth with internal bays. That is the defining characteristic of 5th gen. There are other capabilities that could also be considered as part of 5th gen like super-cruise, networking, sensor fusion. But even 4th gen aircraft can have/already does have those capabilities by upgrading their engines, avionics, computers and so on. So they are only secondary capabilities of 5th gen aircraft.

Compared to the 5th gen what will be the defining characteristic of 6th gen? Just the fact that it will not have vertical stabilizers? but even Yf-23 did not have a pure vertical stabilizer.

Other than that, everything else can be easily ported to 5th gen, even 4th gen fighters.

Things like

loyal wingman drone? Even 4th gen can control those
More networking? 4th gen can do it with minor changes
Optional pilotless flight? 4th gen can do it again with minor changes

It seems other than improving stealth more by using even more stealthy shaping in the front and back, the 6th gen aircraft does not have any other defining characteristic. So, 6th gen it seems is a more incremental change compared to the game changing nature of 4th to 5th gen transition

Engine and airframe are most important for generations. Those are hard to change. Rest can be easily retrofited. The no vertical stabilizer, 3d thrust vectoring, combined cycle engine will be the defining feature 5th gen wont just retrofit.

These are all speculations. Just serve as an example to show my point.

 

[SlothmanAllen]

The thing I think is interesting about the Loyal Wingman concept is that assuming it is really just some computer and sensor hardware, any aircraft can be turned into a Loyal Wingman. So you have a bunch of F-15's and F-16's which are getting older, but still have AESA radars and other upgrades these aircraft can be converted to Loyal Wingman for future use. Outside of testing, the aircraft don't need to fly regularly so they can be kept in service for longer. Same goes for any upgraded 4th gen fighter with AESA radars as they near the end of their service life or their pilots are transitioned to newer aircraft.

 

[by78]

A procurement document that was posted today. It announces an open bid for a comparative radar signature test to be carried out on the rear aspect of a certain technology demonstrator (某工程验证机后向雷达隐身多方案对比测试及弱散射源雷达散射特性研究采购需求采购公告). If I'm reading this correctly, the bid implies that there are multiple competing designs, which necessitates a comparative test to find the design with the best radar signature reduction performance. Unfortunately, the screenshot partially obscures the name of the entity that submitted the bid; it only says "中国航发四", which could be AECC Sichuan Gas Turbine Research Institute/624 Institute (中国航发四川燃气涡轮研究院) or AECC Factory 402 (中国航发四二〇厂) or some other entity.

If indeed the document was submitted by the 624 Institute, then this could be for testing a new engine nozzle. WS-15 with a 2D and/or 3D TVC nozzle perhaps? If this bid has nothing to do with engines, then this could be about anything, from a new UCAV to H-20 to a 6th-gen fighter.