PLA next/6th generation fighter thread

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
What is PLA's goal for this aircraft? That's the interesting question.

This is the very reason why I pointed it out in this discussion because there is a very clear geographic rationale for developing an intermediate fighter-bomber.

Let's do a fun thought experiment. Let's measure things in Chiles!

This is combat radius of approximately three Chiles of B-21 flying a sortie from central US to the edge of Chinese airspace:
3engine 6gen 01.jpg

These are combat radii of approximately three Chiles of B-21 flying a sortie from central US to eastern Europe and southern Africa as well as two Chiles from central US to the northern tip of Ural mountains/Kara sea.
3engine 6gen 04.jpg

This is combat radius of one Chile overlayed on the WestPac theater:
3engine 6gen 02.jpg

This is combat radius of one Chile displayed all around China's territory:
3engine 6gen 03.jpg

This last map shows how China is separated by one Chile from key strategic locations which are instrumental in securing its economic interest against American incursion. It covers both straits of the Red Sea, the Black Sea, the entire Russian northern coast, Bering strait, the WestPac 2IC, the straits between Indonesia and Australia and the entirety of Indian coast.

It covers all te main maritime routes, including Sevmorput as well as all the main land corridors of Eurasia - all of that with a medium bomber.

I don't think more needs to be said at this point. What is necessary is a table with even approximate calculations for the relationship between MTOW, thrust and range. If someone can provide this information the conclusions should be fairly obvious.

These maps also show why the US needs a B-21 while China doesn't. This is exactly the same rationale as the necessity for aircraft carriers for USN vs lack of it for PLAN.

The paper you referred illustrate a scenario of "how to kill enemies whose technology is a generation or two behind us more efficiently".

An intelligent person would read the paper first before expressing an opinion on its applicability. Fragmentary data taken out of context can be misleading in a number of ways. But that's not someting that you ever worry about, is it?

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

I cited these illustrations only to prove a point about an old paper from a major think-tank proposing a bomber-sized aircraft in air-to-air role.

The paper produces several very general conclusions that can be best summed by this graph:
p37.jpg

Note that "relative warning time" and listed speeds (here capped at 2.5Ma) apply to missiles as well. This means that a missile will have even greater advantage in reduced warning time against all aircraft while consuming less fuel. BVR has transformed air to air due to the inevitable asymmetry of fligt parameters between missiles and aircraft. Consequently the paper also notes that during the Gulf War in air to air combat no US aircraft exceeded 650knots (1,03Ma at 12000 ft.) even against targets moving 700kts or more while using primarily AIM-7M. That calculus would look even worse for modern ARH missiles with ranges in excess of 150-200km or VLRAAM with 300-400km range.

As for probability of detection between two peer VLO systems - it only increases the importance of ability to engage at extreme ranges and the ability to deflect enemy sensors with EW. This is exactly the trend that we're seeing right now.

This paper was written almost ten years ago. Since then it was confirmed in almost every air-to-air engagement including during the Russo-Ukraine war.


The sea is exactly China's space for expansion. China is not going to wake up one day and fight Russia so Central and Eastern European countries can have an easier time, sorry to tell you.

I sincerely hope that China does exactly that. It's the best scenario for Poland. The scenario which I was describing is the actual worst case that the experts fear most.
 

Andy1974

Senior Member
Registered Member
This is the very reason why I pointed it out in this discussion because there is a very clear geographic rationale for developing an intermediate fighter-bomber.

Let's do a fun thought experiment. Let's measure things in Chiles!

This is combat radius of approximately three Chiles of B-21 flying a sortie from central US to the edge of Chinese airspace:
View attachment 140719

These are combat radii of approximately three Chiles of B-21 flying a sortie from central US to eastern Europe and southern Africa as well as two Chiles from central US to the northern tip of Ural mountains/Kara sea.
View attachment 140720

This is combat radius of one Chile overlayed on the WestPac theater:
View attachment 140721

This is combat radius of one Chile displayed all around China's territory:
View attachment 140722

This last map shows how China is separated by one Chile from key strategic locations which are instrumental in securing its economic interest against American incursion. It covers both straits of the Red Sea, the Black Sea, the entire Russian northern coast, Bering strait, the WestPac 2IC, the straits between Indonesia and Australia and the entirety of Indian coast.

It covers all te main maritime routes, including Sevmorput as well as all the main land corridors of Eurasia - all of that with a medium bomber.

I don't think more needs to be said at this point. What is necessary is a table with even approximate calculations for the relationship between MTOW, thrust and range. If someone can provide this information the conclusions should be fairly obvious.

These maps also show why the US needs a B-21 while China doesn't. This is exactly the same rationale as the necessity for aircraft carriers for USN vs lack of it for PLAN.



An intelligent person would read the paper first before expressing an opinion on its applicability. Fragmentary data taken out of context can be misleading in a number of ways. But that's not someting that you ever worry about, is it?

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

I cited these illustrations only to prove a point about an old paper from a major think-tank proposing a bomber-sized aircraft in air-to-air role.

The paper produces several very general conclusions that can be best summed by this graph:
View attachment 140715

Note that "relative warning time" and listed speeds (here capped at 2.5Ma) apply to missiles as well. This means that a missile will have even greater advantage in reduced warning time against all aircraft while consuming less fuel. BVR has transformed air to air due to the inevitable asymmetry of fligt parameters between missiles and aircraft. Consequently the paper also notes that during the Gulf War in air to air combat no US aircraft exceeded 650knots (1,03Ma at 12000 ft.) even against targets moving 700kts or more while using primarily AIM-7M. That calculus would look even worse for modern ARH missiles with ranges in excess of 150-200km or VLRAAM with 300-400km range.

As for probability of detection between two peer VLO systems - it only increases the importance of ability to engage at extreme ranges and the ability to deflect enemy sensors with EW. This is exactly the trend that we're seeing right now.

This paper was written almost ten years ago. Since then it was confirmed in almost every air-to-air engagement including during the Russo-Ukraine war.




I sincerely hope that China does exactly that. It's the best scenario for Poland. The scenario which I was describing is the actual worst case that the experts fear most.
The earth is a sphere. The shortest line from America to China is not via Hawaii, it’s via Alaska. It is much shorter than you are showing.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
This is the very reason why I pointed it out in this discussion because there is a very clear geographic rationale for developing an intermediate fighter-bomber.

Let's do a fun thought experiment. Let's measure things in Chiles!


This last map shows how China is separated by one Chile from key strategic locations which are instrumental in securing its economic interest against American incursion. It covers both straits of the Red Sea, the Black Sea, the entire Russian northern coast, Bering strait, the WestPac 2IC, the straits between Indonesia and Australia and the entirety of Indian coast.

It covers all te main maritime routes, including Sevmorput as well as all the main land corridors of Eurasia - all of that with a medium bomber.

I don't think more needs to be said at this point. What is necessary is a table with even approximate calculations for the relationship between MTOW, thrust and range. If someone can provide this information the conclusions should be fairly obvious.

These maps also show why the US needs a B-21 while China doesn't. This is exactly the same rationale as the necessity for aircraft carriers for USN vs lack of it for PLAN.

I think your 1 Chile theory is logical. something around 3500km combat radius is what I what I've been mentioning here.

It maybe the case that PLA saw 2500-3000km combat radius as the limit of what can be achieved with 2 engines and that it saw significant gain for that extra 500-1000 km combat radius.

I was discussing with @BoraTas the idea of missions to Australia and Diego Garcia. Maybe it feels that H-20 needs escorts to get closer to land more bombs against those type of targets. Maybe it feels like the extra patrol time is needed over Pacific or Indian Ocean.

Then, there is the question of loyal wingman. How big do they need to be to have similar range and patrol time.

We'd need to see the aircraft come out before we can validate if these hypothesis are true.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
This is the very reason why I pointed it out in this discussion because there is a very clear geographic rationale for developing an intermediate fighter-bomber.

Let's do a fun thought experiment. Let's measure things in Chiles!
Personally, I think Chile (4200km) is somewhat too long.

I'd go with a notional 3000km range from China, which still covers all the key objectives below

1. Extended operating times over the 1IC
2. Able to reach the 2IC, which comprise only a few opposing islands and aircraft carriers
3. ASEAN and the Malacca Straits, which prevents the US Navy from operating in this area and implementing a blockade
4. All of India, which helps keep India neutral
5. The Persian Gulf, and any US assets located there

If they need more range (Australia or the 2.5IC for example) - they can do airborne refuelling offshore and/or use drop tanks - as the nearby airspace should still be secure.

And I don't think covering the land corridors in Eurasia is a serious consideration.

---

Going from 3000km to 4200km is going to cause a disproportionate increase in size/weight/cost, but cover very few additional operational targets that are worthwhile.

Plus the supporting CCAs (and also land-based missiles) are really going to struggle to go past 3000km without getting much larger and therefore expensive.

And critically, the US will struggle to respond because the US is reliant on:

1. a small number of US aircraft carriers which can only launch smaller, shorter ranged aircraft and CCAs. At the same time these aircraft will be more expensive than their land-based Chinese counterparts which can operate from many bases on mainland China

2. a few vulnerable US bases in the 2IC which can be expected to become non-operational pretty quickly.

--

But once the 2IC is reasonably secure, the next step will have to be many more Chinese aircraft carriers for distances beyond 3000km.
 
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tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Personally, I think Chile (4200km) is somewhat too long.

I'd go with a notional 3000km range from China, which still covers all the key objectives below

1. Extended operating times over the 1IC
2. Able to reach the 2IC, which comprise only a few opposing islands and aircraft carriers
3. ASEAN and the Malacca Straits, which prevents the US Navy from operating in this area and implementing a blockade
4. All of India, which helps keep India neutral
5. The Persian Gulf, and any US assets located there

If they need more range (Australia or the 2.5IC for example) - they can do airborne refuelling offshore and/or use drop tanks - as the nearby airspace should still be secure.

And I don't think covering the land corridors in Eurasia is a serious consideration.

---

Going from 3000km to 4200km is going to cause a disproportionate increase in size/weight/cost, but cover very few additional operational targets that are worthwhile.

Plus the supporting CCAs (and also land-based missiles) are really going to struggle to go past 3000km without getting much larger and therefore expensive.

And critically, the US will struggle to respond because the US is reliant on:

1. a small number of US aircraft carriers which can only launch smaller, shorter ranged aircraft and CCAs. At the same time these aircraft will be more expensive than their land-based Chinese counterparts which can operate from many bases on mainland China

2. a few vulnerable US bases in the 2IC which can be expected to become non-operational pretty quickly.

--

But once the 2IC is reasonably secure, the next step will have to be many more Chinese aircraft carriers for distances beyond 3000km.
be very careful, you are getting to the off topic realm now.

this is a warning to everyone.
 

BoraTas

Major
Registered Member
I think your 1 Chile theory is logical. something around 3500km combat radius is what I what I've been mentioning here.

It maybe the case that PLA saw 2500-3000km combat radius as the limit of what can be achieved with 2 engines and that it saw significant gain for that extra 500-1000 km combat radius.

I was discussing with @BoraTas the idea of missions to Australia and Diego Garcia. Maybe it feels that H-20 needs escorts to get closer to land more bombs against those type of targets. Maybe it feels like the extra patrol time is needed over Pacific or Indian Ocean.

Then, there is the question of loyal wingman. How big do they need to be to have similar range and patrol time.

We'd need to see the aircraft come out before we can validate if these hypothesis are true.
For years we had rumors about China developing two VLO bombers. One smaller and with supersonic dash, and another bigger flying wing one. There were always justifications for a smaller bomber. US Navy has to come within a distance of China after all and Japan is near with all the bases on it. Guam and Diego Garcia aren't that far away either. If this 3-engine 6th gen fighter is indeed real I think it is also the medium bomber we have been hearing about. Because for certainly, something of the rumored size will have the requisite payload for this and PLA won't pay for a bomber around 100 tonnes while this thing is existing.
 

kriss

Junior Member
Registered Member
An intelligent person would read the paper first before expressing an opinion on its applicability. Fragmentary data taken out of context can be misleading in a number of ways. But that's not someting that you ever worry about, is it?
It's your burden of responsibility to support your own point with correct material especially when you are calling names and insulting people like you did earlier and just now. An intelligent person would cite the part of study that would best support his opinion instead of expecting or even requesting others to read the whole paper first. But that's not something that you ever worry about, is it?

You seems like an intelligent person worth exchanging thoughts with so at the very least please keep it civilized.

Note that "relative warning time" and listed speeds (here capped at 2.5Ma) apply to missiles as well. This means that a missile will have even greater advantage in reduced warning time against all aircraft while consuming less fuel. BVR has transformed air to air due to the inevitable asymmetry of fligt parameters between missiles and aircraft. Consequently the paper also notes that during the Gulf War in air to air combat no US aircraft exceeded 650knots (1,03Ma at 12000 ft.) even against targets moving 700kts or more while using primarily AIM-7M. That calculus would look even worse for modern ARH missiles with ranges in excess of 150-200km or VLRAAM with 300-400km range.

As for probability of detection between two peer VLO systems - it only increases the importance of ability to engage at extreme ranges and the ability to deflect enemy sensors with EW. This is exactly the trend that we're seeing right now.

This paper was written almost ten years ago. Since then it was confirmed in almost every air-to-air engagement including during the Russo-Ukraine war.

Kinetic performance of the aircraft would affect not only its non-escape zone against an enemy weapon but also the range and thus non-escape zone of its own weapons. While 700kts and below 650kts may not be a deciding difference, mach 2 and mach 0.8 could bring a lot of changing factors.

The paper values range a lot and are willing to sacrifice speed and maneuverability for it. I'm not sure if that's a good trade off considering USAF's very impressive tanker fleet and the fact that an aircraft with top speed of mach 2 can always turn the throttle down and cruise while a B-21 would never be able to go supersonic.

If other conditions are equal the party with higher speed would surely have initiative and more options. One would say it's very risky to bet everything on lower observability and long range weapon especially when US is the one with weapon range disadvantage now.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
For years we had rumors about China developing two VLO bombers. One smaller and with supersonic dash, and another bigger flying wing one. There were always justifications for a smaller bomber. US Navy has to come within a distance of China after all and Japan is near with all the bases on it. Guam and Diego Garcia aren't that far away either. If this 3-engine 6th gen fighter is indeed real I think it is also the medium bomber we have been hearing about. Because for certainly, something of the rumored size will have the requisite payload for this and PLA won't pay for a bomber around 100 tonnes while this thing is existing.
So I wonder if we are going to basically have:
XAC - H-20 strategic bomber going into service around 2030
CAC - 3-engine fighter bomber going into service around 2032
SAC - 2-engine naval/land fighter jet going into service around 2037

Given how China is going, I think it would have the budget for 3 programs basically serving 3 roles. The first two are probably more important since J-20A and J-35A should be competitive for a while.
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
The first two are probably more important since J-20A and J-35A should be competitive for a while.
J-20a is barely 6 years, j-35a isn't even in full service yet. Both have full service life ahead of them.

Future is exciting, but we should stick closer to our time. :x

P.s. on range. a bit of a stretch, but su-57 has 7000km transfer range(with drop and bay tanks probably). Most likely it's by far the longest among other current fighters.

Since j-xx apparently needs this kind of figure in combat configuration, it's rather easy to see where 3rd engine comes from.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
So I wonder if we are going to basically have:
XAC - H-20 strategic bomber going into service around 2030
CAC - 3-engine fighter bomber going into service around 2032
SAC - 2-engine naval/land fighter jet going into service around 2037

Given how China is going, I think it would have the budget for 3 programs basically serving 3 roles. The first two are probably more important since J-20A and J-35A should be competitive for a while.

Kinda doubtful that the Xi'an AC's H-20's entry into service being earlier than the Chengdu's AC's 3-engine J-XD1, given the currently-held expectation (per Cute Orca's indication) that whereas the H-20 might take flight by Zhuhai 2026, the J-XD1 might take flight by the end of this year, if not within these few months.

The service entry estimate for the Shenyang AC's 2-engine J-XD2 seems rather late as well, no?

Of course, this depends on:
1. Cute Orca's sources being accurate to the tee on the H-20 (and Cute Orca + Yankee & Co. + 万年炎帝 + Shenhua + etc on the J-XD1); and
2. The H-20 being the large flying-wing configuration design (ala B-2-esque).
 
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