PLA next/6th generation fighter thread

iewgnem

Junior Member
Registered Member
Not with the userbase that SDF cultivates.

You reap what you sow.

Example:



Here we have an internet expert sharing his expertly opinion developed from years of studying mainstream media and social media instead of actual military and technological developments and relevant publications. If he did the latter instead of the former he would know that military always knew that stealth was never invincible and planned accordingly while maintaining propaganda cover for several reasons.

The difference between an intelligent person and an internet expert is that an internet expert doesn't understand that mainstream media, even those aimed at "enthusiasts" will not deal with the problems and solutions that the military faces. It exists to manipulate your opinion or extract money from you. It can't teach you anything because if it does, then you stop needing what it has to offer. The business model of commercial media hinges on maintaining your ignorance while pretending to inform you.

Consequently you end up with this type of "analysis" and other internet experts come to support it with their expertly expertise and we have one giant happy circlejerk of expertly experts expertly patting each other on their expertly backs.

That's the unfortunate reality of SDF's flagship threads. Anything more than that is the exception.Unless we're talking about the rest of SDF outside of the strictly moderated threads where imbecility and mental illness is the unchallenged norm that makes the above comments look thoughtful and informative by comparison. But again - you reap what you sow.

Anyway, moving on:



NGAD is a name of a budget position that covers a number of R&D programs relating to a family of systems. Among those are UCAVs as well as distributed control systems, some of which will be retrofitted to F-35s. It is not a budget position focusing on a single platform like ATF or JSF, let alone on a new manned platform.

The new manned fighter is only one of the R&D projects within NGAD and it is not the most important one. The individual solutions will be much more important.

There's a fundamental difference between NGAD and JSF and in the past I've written extensively on both. "6gen" or "NGAD" is a technology development and integration progam. JSF was a market grab program. Therefore JSF necessitated a single platform because that was the only way to end up with a single systems integrator which would consequently become the de facto fighter monopoly. If there were multiple platforms there would be multiple integrators and consequently multiple options for future development. This is why F-35C was forced on the Navy - to make sure that LM kept R&D for 5gen carrier-borne fighters under control. Since Navy offered no alternative LRS-B was designed specifically to protect Northrop Grumman as failsafe against LM's monopoly. It's not a perfect failsafe but at least it provides some options.

This is why LM is the lead company in NGAD because JSF put all the crucial competence in the hands of a single company for over 20 years. Between that and the reversal on Pentagon's policies regarding non-proprietary software (e.g. replacing Ada with LMs solutions) the entire American aerospace industry degenerated within a generation. LM is currently almost entirely focused on maintaining F-35 production and development so the culture of the company will select for skill in management of commercial and logistical networks as well as political support. Or in other words LM is Apple Corporation of today, while USAF needs it to be Apple Corporation of early 2000s. So NGAD is not so much about building the next fighter as it is about attempting to restore the options necessary to rapidly innovate in the future.

If a fighter is developed it will be a gap-filler responding to the immediate need for a lighter and faster decision node compared to B-21. But you shouldn't think of American 6gen as a single fighter but as a common environment enabling operating a family of unmanned systems for B-21, F-35 and a potential manned fighter. The unmanned systems will be where the dynamic iterative process will occur and where the arms race will be won or lost. And so far all the signals from the US indicate that they understand that fact, at least in large part.



B-21 as a decision node and UCAVs as weapons and sensor nodes is in all likelihood the optimal solution to NGAD.

It has power necessary for EW as well as room for all the sensors and long range air-to-air weapons. Everything else can and should be carried by UCAVs.

This is from CSBA paper from 2015 titled "Trends in air-to-air combat"

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The US has two types of theaters for air warfare defined by range and sortie intensity:
  • similar to Europe where F-35 is sufficient
  • similar to WestPac where B-21 is necessary
Unlike China the US doesn't really have an intermediate theater which could benefit from a compromise design because all such intermediate theaters require or are already served by naval aviation. China on the other hand has three such intermediate theaters:
  • South East-Asia and Australia
  • Eastern Siberia and potentially European Russia
  • Central Asia and Indian subcontinent
As you can see two of those theaters are continental and wouldn't work with naval aviation even if China had proper CSGs. China therefore needs land-based intermediate-range tactical aviation which in turn means that naval aviation which is a priority for the US is of secondary importance to China. And this is why China can potentially benefit from a new larger airframe design while the US won't, because its equivalent is F/A-XX which will be limited in size for carrier operations.

A smaller "intermediate" aircraft allows the US to project power from carriers over all three ranges. They have no material interest in building anything that won't utilise the carriers because - as I wrote on numerous occasions - the foundation of US power projection is the ability to cross the oceans separating North America from every other part of the world.

On the other hand China should understand that the foundation of its power projection should be the ability to contest airspace over the landmass of Eurasia and nearby seas. The island chains are where the American focus lies presently and therefore where China's first reaction must be. It is not
however where China's long-term plans are and not where the US will attempt to project power in the future.

For all the claims of being an alternative viewpoint SDF is unbelievably American-centric in its perception of the Chinese strategic, operational and tactical question. And I have to bring up the elephant in the room which is the extent of the influence that Russian propaganda and disinformation has on SDF users.

For anyone who understands geopolitics as well as the importance of logistics in military planning it is obvious that China focusing on the Pacific is wasting resources and opportunities. Sea being a hostile environment to humans will not treat Chinese differently than Americans. Therefore the sea is the natural barrier that limits China's power projection, and not a space for expansion. It is different for America because America is the exception to the global landmass. China is not. Therefore the natural direction for China to expand its influence and power is over land, not sea. Land is where China is (and historically has been) stronger and it is where America will be weakest because it has built a fundamentally maritime system of power projection derived from the British Empire which it replaced after WW2.

It's obvious, but it requires SDF users to stop being Russo-centric and US-centric and finally start being China-centric in their analysis. Most SDF users are more interested in hating on the "evil west" due to personal failures and treat China as means of living out their revenge fantasies. This has nothing to do with trying to understand Chinese strategic thought and related developments.

Anyway, I've written too much already.

You wrote all that just to expand on what I already said?
...and they'll have to pass off a UCAV squadron concept as 6th gen, or use B21.

China isn't building 6th gen in place of UCAV or H20, China can afford all of them.
You're not going to face Chinese 4th gen with UCAV + F35 + B21 like in your chart, you're going to face Chinese 6th gen + UCAV + H20 + GJ1 + J20S + J20A + J35 + J16. America is poor, only poor countries need to explain why it's ok to not have something, rich ones don't.

China has always been China-centric, historically China has always eliminated those who threaten it to the maximum extent, it used to come from central Asia, now it comes from the Pacific. The extent of China's focus is the entirity of area occupied by water-Xiongnu, and that means the entirity of Pacific, and North America if needed.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Too much focus on geopolitics. While any weapon system is ultimately somewhat related to prospective opponents, let's focus on the tangible stuff (rumour..)

This 3-engine configuration rumour seems to me something closer to the concept/requirements of a JH-XX than what I (and probably what others) had in mind originally of a more "ordinary" fighter.

Large combat range, payload capacity, and electricity generation for subsystems have significant strategic and tactical implications on what requirements the CMC and the Party as a whole have set on the PLA. Maybe eventually we could see an updated defence white paper

I am curious as to how the rest of the 6th gen nodes will be developed to take full advantage of that rumoured large combat range and what implications would be for PLANAF wrt if/how this increased weight would affect carrier operations. Interesting stuff all around, but let's wait for the first flight before we draw any conclusions
 
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tphuang

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I mean why not wait the little while until it actually drops before beginning too wild speculations?

I'm seeing stuff like assumptions that "it has to be significantly superior to anything US has" and on the other side there is already US cope like "it's going to be like Su-25 while US' own 6th gen will be like F-15" or wild assumptions on what number of engines have to mean, when the truth is we have no idea what style of aircraft, what subsystems are fielded etc.

To me it makes a lot more sense to wait until it drops because it's just in a few weeks and only after make conclusions. As for whatever if the US program is comparable or who is in the "lead", for that we'll have to wait until both platforms are out and then make a comparison.

Well, if you are actually going to do a real 6th gen or claim you are doing so, then it should be significantly superior to a 5th gen aircraft that's clearly size/space/power limited with short range.

What you not consider it to be a major failure if a Chinese next gen aircraft isn't a lot better than F-35?

This seems like not an unreasonable expectation.

Whether it's a large twin engine or a tri-engine aircraft, it should be expected to be a lot better than any of the 5th generation aircraft currently in service. Otherwise, what is the point?

And then there is the question of twin vs three engine config.

I don't think we can say one is necessarily better than the other one. This is more of an indication of where PLA feels like future warfare is going for the requirement they have in mind.

It is also possible they will also pursue a twin-engine design later through SAC. We don't really know at this point.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that an aircraft with 3 engine should be larger and more capable than a 2 engine aircraft of the same generation, but come with higher cost. Maybe the maintenance will be more burdensome and harder. Maybe they will pair it up with more loyal wingman, since they won't have as many of them.

What is the implication of that?

What is PLA's goal for this aircraft? That's the interesting question.
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Whether it's a large twin engine or a tri-engine aircraft, it should be expected to be a lot better than any of the 5th generation aircraft currently in service. Otherwise, what is the point?

What is PLA's goal for this aircraft? That's the interesting question.

Look at the military balance in 2030-2035, based on the procurement programmes already underway.

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We're looking at Chinese air superiority and the ability to impose an air-sea blockade over all of the 1IC - namely Taiwan, South Korea, Japan and partly the Phillippines. And there is very little that the US can realistically do in the 1IC to counter this, because they are all small islands which can be blockaded.

Hence the USAF is betting that they can use bases in the 2IC and 3IC.
So the is focus on the B-21, long-range NGAD and also a stealthy tanker to allow NGAD to refuel and get to the 1IC or off the Chinese coast.

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The US Navy plans to sortie carriers and SAGs to 1000-1500km off the Chinese coast.

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So what is the goal for the PLAAF?

I think it is a 6th gen air superiority "fighter" to operate to the 2IC, and preferably some ways beyond. That pushes the A2AD bubble to past the 2IC - some 3000 km away.

It also means such aircraft can conduct sustained air superiority operations over Japan and the Philippines - which are somewhat too far away for current fighters to sustain.
 

kriss

Junior Member
Registered Member
B-21 as a decision node and UCAVs as weapons and sensor nodes is in all likelihood the optimal solution to NGAD.

It has power necessary for EW as well as room for all the sensors and long range air-to-air weapons. Everything else can and should be carried by UCAVs.

This is from CSBA paper from 2015 titled "Trends in air-to-air combat"
The paper you referred illustrate a scenario of "how to kill enemies whose technology is a generation or two behind us more efficiently".

Isn't that exactly the ultimate cause of most US military procurement fiasco of this century? And you are saying they are repeating the same mistake yet it would be "the optimal solution"?
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
The paper you referred illustrate a scenario of "how to kill enemies whose technology is a generation or two behind us more efficiently".

Isn't that exactly the ultimate cause of most US military procurement fiasco of this century? And you are saying they are repeating the same mistake yet it would be "the optimal solution"?
It is not, b-21 is widely understood to be a perspective node - way better than f-35...and it is indeed a high end warfare solution,

The problem is if it's enough, when it will be enough, and how it'll work in general. How many of them will be available, including number at specific point(two points? 20 points? point in time when we aren't ready and our happy flying wing from Australia is just 6 hours away?). And many, many more.

CCA is easy at first glance, but it's a whole new page of warfare, which hasn't even started yet.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
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Guys ... Can we please stop with any political discussions and even more so political ratings!

IMO even a discussion on pros and cons of a not yet seen J-XD vs a postponed NGAD fighter and why what can be interpret as whatever is in fact a bit premature!

So please stop this (political) nonsense and wait until we see it.
 

kriss

Junior Member
Registered Member
It is not, b-21 is widely understood to be a perspective node - way better than f-35...and it is indeed a high end warfare solution,

The problem is if it's enough, when it will be enough, and how it'll work in general. How many of them will be available, including number at specific point(two points? 20 points? point in time when we aren't ready and our happy flying wing from Australia is just 6 hours away?). And many, many more.

CCA is easy at first glance, but it's a whole new page of warfare, which hasn't even started yet.
Look at the graph he quoted. Enemy aircraft portrayed has a detection range double or triple of that of B-21 and its unmanned escort. They also have this VLRAAM that outrange even the monstrous detection range they assume on enemies. And apparently enemies are unaware that they've been detected and fired upon until very late. It's basically like shooting towed targets in exercise. With this kind of technology advantage It doesn't matter if it's B-21 with drones or F-35 plus or a stealth C-17.

That paper did not take consideration of possibility of an adversary with similar technology level. It did not study the problem of " if it's enough, when it will be enough, and how it'll work in general". It just assume enemy would be so backward that it would work.

Not disagreeing with the concept of B-21 being the node and CCA would be the future. Just that it's too early to jump the gun to call it "the optimal solution" especially if the conclusion is based on that specific material.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Look at the graph he quoted. Enemy aircraft portrayed has a detection range double or triple of that of B-21 and its unmanned escort. They also have this VLRAAM that outrange even the monstrous detection range they assume on enemies. And apparently enemies are unaware that they've been detected and fired upon until very late. It's basically like shooting towed targets in exercise. With this kind of technology advantage It doesn't matter if it's B-21 with drones or F-35 plus or a stealth C-17.

That paper did not take consideration of possibility of an adversary with similar technology level. It did not study the problem of " if it's enough, when it will be enough, and how it'll work in general". It just assume enemy would be so backward that it would work.

Not disagreeing with the concept of B-21 being the node and CCA would be the future. Just that it's too early to jump the gun to call it "the optimal solution" especially if the conclusion is based on that specific material.
One would have to assume maybe this is just a press release meant to show approximately how the aircraft work.

The internal design documents would likely deal with the scenario of facing detection ranges smaller than the B-21 and it's escort. It would be bordering on criminally negligent to not have thoroughly explored this possibility in a new aircraft design.

They have a corruption problem across the Pacific, but I don't think their engineers have a common sense problem.
 

kriss

Junior Member
Registered Member
One would have to assume maybe this is just a press release meant to show approximately how the aircraft work.

The internal design documents would likely deal with the scenario of facing detection ranges smaller than the B-21 and it's escort. It would be bordering on criminally negligent to not have thoroughly explored this possibility in a new aircraft design.

They have a corruption problem across the Pacific, but I don't think their engineers have a common sense problem.
Then one should not use this as evidence to support his point and critic others.
 
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