PLA Ground Forces news, pics and videos

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Scout

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doggydogdo said:
RPG-7 travels around 300m/sec. Also, the RPG was fired at much closer ranges than those ATGMs operate at which makes it harder for APS to react.
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It's don't work like that. For the modern microprocessors, with high speed of processing, does not have difference in these ranges - 100m or 1000km, for them are the same.

I don't have detailed data about the modern APSs, but the russian Arena, that is from the 80s, hase detecting range 50 meter and it destroyng the threat at 25 meter from the tank.

So the point that " the RPG was fired at much closer ranges than those ATGMs operate at which makes it harder for APS to react" isin't reliable.
 
doggydogdo

doggydogdo

Junior Member
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Scout said:
It's don't work like that. For the modern microprocessors, with high speed of processing, does not have difference in these ranges - 100m or 1000km, for them are the same.

I don't have detailed data about the modern APSs, but the russian Arena, that is from the 80s, hase detecting range 50 meter and it destroyng the threat at 25 meter from the tank.

So the point that " the RPG was fired at much closer ranges than those ATGMs operate at which makes it harder for APS to react" isin't reliable.
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Less distance means the APS has less time to turn and react, it's the reason why Israeli APS did so bad during the war.
 
S

Scout

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doggydogdo said:
Less distance means the APS has less time to turn and react, it's the reason why Israeli APS did so bad during the war.
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If you shoot from 20-30 meters, then interception will be problematic.

And if you shoot from 100 meters, then it doesn't matter at all.

P.S. It seems that you have statistics on Trophy, can you share with us?
 
O

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Scout said:
First of all the ATGM has bigger residual penetration of the cumulative jet after warhead explosion on the air, than the RPG.

View attachment 145219



Then air launched ATGMs have higher speed than RPGs.
- Vikhr - 600 m/sec
- Ataka - 550 m/sec
- Hellfire - 440 m/sec
- TOW ~ 300 m/sec
- RPG-7 - 120-150m/sec
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Yea but I did say RPG7 is faster than most ATGMs.

First of all, RPG 7 is around 300m/s top speed so your figure there is wrong. That makes it roughly similar to TOW in top speed.

The most common ATGMs faced by armoured vehicles are still infantry operated. Javelin and HJ series are all around 200m/s to 300m/s. They are also usually launched over a km away from the vehicle, RPGs are much more portable and in that respect, versatile. It's a great way to test APS response time but yes if they wanted to simulate an attack from air launched ATGM they could even use air launched rockets. Those would go way over 600m/s but it's possible the APS couldn't deal with those. Who knows.

In any case APS are obviously not a defeat all system. Russian/Soviet APS didn't save them in Grozny or Ukraine. Israeli APS don't spare Merkavas from the most poorly armed and trained "militias". Turkish leopards got wasted in Syria. Leclercs also. Whatever MBT steps on a battlefield have all been humbled. APS or not, give it some time and all tanks get wasted without the appropriate application tactics and the wider military. All of these are more or less against very poorly armed and trained insurgent level actors. Would be similar if PRC did a armed reunification of ROC's island hideout lol. They'd be up against similar tactics and if applied incorrectly 99As 96s etc would get wasted with or without APS. The trick is to wipe out the insurgents. No one's figured out how to achieve that effectively but attritable armed robots and drones could be the key. Certainly these have not been applied in the past.

These days quadcopters not even FPV drones are taking out multimillion dollar tanks with relative ease. APS needs to be geared more towards countering mass drone attacks before ATGMs. Tanks are simply not as survivable with proliferation of suicide drones and loitering munitions. Doesn't matter what the colour of the tank is.
 
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S

Scout

New Member
Registered Member
doggydogdo said:
Nope, I'm just guessing based of the destroyed tanks
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And how many tanks destroyed?
How many of them has APS?
How many of the tanks with APS m destroyed by the ATGM/RPG?
How many with APS, that destroyed by the ATGM/APS, has destroyed from the close distance?
 
S

Scout

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ougoah said:
Yea but I did say RPG7 is faster than most ATGMs.

First of all, RPG 7 is around 300m/s top speed so your figure there is wrong. That makes it roughly similar to TOW in top speed.

The most common ATGMs faced by armoured vehicles are still infantry operated. Javelin and HJ series are all around 200m/s to 300m/s. They are also usually launched over a km away from the vehicle, RPGs are much more portable and in that respect, versatile. It's a great way to test APS response time but yes if they wanted to simulate an attack from air launched ATGM they could even use air launched rockets. Those would go way over 600m/s but it's possible the APS couldn't deal with those. Who knows.

In any case APS are obviously not a defeat all system. Russian/Soviet APS didn't save them in Grozny or Ukraine. Israeli APS don't spare Merkavas from the most poorly armed and trained "militias". Turkish leopards got wasted in Syria. Leclercs also. Whatever MBT steps on a battlefield have all been humbled. APS or not, give it some time and all tanks get wasted without the appropriate application tactics and the wider military. All of these are more or less against very poorly armed and trained insurgent level actors. Would be similar if PRC did a armed reunification of ROC's island hideout lol. They'd be up against similar tactics and if applied incorrectly 99As 96s etc would get wasted with or without APS. The trick is to wipe out the insurgents. No one's figured out how to achieve that effectively but attritable armed robots and drones could be the key. Certainly these have not been applied in the past.

These days quadcopters not even FPV drones are taking out multimillion dollar tanks with relative ease. APS needs to be geared more towards countering mass drone attacks before ATGMs. Tanks are simply not as survivable with proliferation of suicide drones and loitering munitions. Doesn't matter what the colour of the tank is.
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The Russians didn't have APS in Grozny.

About Trophy see my previous comment.

Of Course It's not the absolute defense weapon.

And again - MY POINT IS THAT, BASED ON THE VIDEO WE CAN'T GUDGE HOW IT WORKS AGAINST ATGMs.

P. S. Of Course they can fire whatever they want, but we don't discuss about the researchers capabilities.
 
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