Philippines Vs Taiwan... Troubled Waters

Player 0 said:

Even assuming they could afford that, would the Philippines have the kind of infrastructure to support those long term? And again, if they decide to up the ante, everyone else would use that as an excuse to up the ante.

Benefits for the arms dealers all around certainly, but that only means realistically that the Philippines will become a pariah state.

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It's not the infrastructure aspect that's the biggest obstacle. Aside from the corruption so many have already discussed, they simply don't appear to have a coherent long term strategy with their modernization. So far, it's been haphazard with many bold statements that end up fizzling. For the limited funds, I find it fascinating that they are so enamored with show pieces. For instance, the continued shopping list for two frigates, first it was the Maestrale class which didn't pan out. Now it's potentially two new units built by South Korea. While having two frigates in the navy is a boost, just how two additional ships will resurrect the entire navy is something that won't happen. Furthermore, if the rumor is true that Harpoon missiles will be installed on the two ex-Hamilton cutters, neither of those frigates use Harpoon and creates logistical challenges, something one with a limited budget should avoid.

Objectively speaking, the 1.8 billion would offer more bang for the buck for the Philippine navy if they simply invested it in a larger fleet of modern corvettes (light frigates) or heavily armed patrol vessels. The Gumdoksuri class of SK actually even has anti-ship missiles. List price is around $37.7 million USD in 2009. What will accomplish more in the big picture in terms of securing one's maritime security - two expensive (relative to the budget) frigates or a small fleet of modern patrol vessels?

nemo said:

What does that has to do with anything? Logistics is merely more opportunity for corruption and kickbacks. Better yet, it's a continuous revenue stream as long as those "weapons" remain in service. An arms race? even better -- more weapons, more kickback.

Philippine being a pariah state? No way that's going to happen. Just sacrifice more Philippine national interest to buy them off. Basing rights? check. Opening markets? check. Not contesting disputed territories? check. People will deal with you if you let them profit off you. The only question is how much Filipinos will allow you to spend before they throw you out. That's why national humiliation is necessary -- else people will not make the additional sacrifices. Hence the national masochism.

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Heh, not going to deny that, sorry i was still under the impression that they'd have a plan on how to use and maintain these systems properly and not turn into overly expensive white elephants.

Uhh, bribe? What the hell are they going to bribe them with? And why would anyone accept these bribes? The Philippines is easily the poorest country in the region, everyone else is many times wealthier than they are, and if it really does become a contest of bribery then Taiwan can outspend them several hundred times over, i mean they already do it with pacific islands and latin American states to get UN support. Unless the USA gives them lots and lots and lots of free money, the same way they do to the Afghans to keep the warlords on their side, i really don't see how they're going to acquire that money without spending up most of their kickbacks.

But if that's to say that the Philippines lack basic accounting skills as well as foresight, i'm certainly not going to argue against that.

Look like there is an interesting twist -- Philippine is interested in buying Spanish Aircraft Carrier 'Principe de Asturias".



Sorry the article is in Spanish. But the only other article I found on this is in Vietnamese. Google translate do a better job translating from Spanish than Vietnamese. I heart that there are report on this in Russian, but I am not able to verify that.

Obviously, 1.8 billion USD will not be enough...

nemo said:

Look like there is an interesting twist -- Philippine is interested in buying Spanish Aircraft Carrier 'Principe de Asturias".

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Sorry the article is in Spanish. But the only other article I found on this is in Vietnamese. Google translate do a better job translating from Spanish than Vietnamese. I heart that there are report on this in Russian, but I am not able to verify that.

Obviously, 1.8 billion USD will not be enough...

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Do the Philippines even have enough qualified sailors and officers to operate any kind of aircraft carrier in the first place?

Equation said:

Do the Philippines even have enough qualified sailors and officers to operate any kind of aircraft carrier in the first place?

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This is how you can tell this government runs on rationalism less comprehensive than 10 year old.
With an non-existent navy they are planning to purchase an aircraft carrier?

This is Philippino-style rhetoric for you. Perhaps they think releasing a stupid propaganda like this will deliver some sort of political message.

Equation said:

Do the Philippines even have enough qualified sailors and officers to operate any kind of aircraft carrier in the first place?

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No. But suppose US offer crew from US Navy for Marine (for Harrier pilots) as "volunteer" or mercenary, or even as cross training exchange program (which, in reality, is strictly one way)?

That is, if US is not afraid that China may actually kill some of the crew. Attacking a warship with US crew is different diplomatically than attacking a US warship.

nemo said:

No. But suppose US offer crew from US Navy for Marine (for Harrier pilots) as "volunteer" or mercenary, or even as cross training exchange program (which, in reality, is strictly one way)?

That is, if US is not afraid that China may actually kill some of the crew. Attacking a warship with US crew is different diplomatically than attacking a US warship.

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Nah, this is the US we're talking about, the lives of their citizens, or at least non-Arab citizens, and especially servicemen are sacrosanct to the public, and i'm not sure you can hire a PMC to operate that either.

Besides wouldn't that be something of a hindrance or threat to their survival? How well does this Spanish carrier stack up to American standards?

Player 0 said:

Nah, this is the US we're talking about, the lives of their citizens, or at least non-Arab citizens, and especially servicemen are sacrosanct to the public, and i'm not sure you can hire a PMC to operate that either.

Besides wouldn't that be something of a hindrance or threat to their survival? How well does this Spanish carrier stack up to American standards?

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I raised the issue because it happened before, historically -- during Cold War and WW-II. If US is really serious about propping up Philippine, then that is an option. This also have an advantage of making the hardware operational much faster. And it can be structured so US pays for the salaries of the men and officer loaned out. This can also double as a training program -- gradually pull out as native replacements are trained.

Even without paying for the crew, this is going to be expensive to operate and maintain -- probably more than their entire navy and air force combined.

Spain is a full NATO member and have full technical access -- at least on the procurement. So it cannot be that bad.

nemo said:

No. But suppose US offer crew from US Navy for Marine (for Harrier pilots) as "volunteer" or mercenary, or even as cross training exchange program (which, in reality, is strictly one way)?

That is, if US is not afraid that China may actually kill some of the crew. Attacking a warship with US crew is different diplomatically than attacking a US warship.

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Anyhow that ship will cost a good deal of money to operate and maintain, what I wonder is whether the Philippines can cough up that among of money every year since...or they expect the US to foot the bill under the military aid tab?

And AV-8B Harrier cost a lot to fly as well, and Philippines is so damn broke that they still don't have a functional fixed-wing fast mover assets...

airsuperiority said:

This is how you can tell this government runs on rationalism less comprehensive than 10 year old.
With an non-existent navy they are planning to purchase an aircraft carrier?

This is Philippino-style rhetoric for you. Perhaps they think releasing a stupid propaganda like this will deliver some sort of political message.

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Filipino propaganda that's not reported in any major Filipino news agents... let alone the intended audience of Taiwan and China, and mainly spread on Vietnamese news sites...

Maybe every time something about 'OMG CHINA BUY BACKFIRES' turns up it's the dastardly PRC trying to intimidate its neighbours with propaganda, amirite?

I suggest people try to tone down on this knee-jerk country-bashing, it's not getting anyone anywhere.