Philippines Vs Taiwan... Troubled Waters

solarz

solarz

Brigadier
Jeff Head said:
That would get them out of this. What they are doing now is simply digging their hole deeper, and going to cost them far, far more.
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I agree. Had PH apologized from the start and offered recompense, this incident would have been resolved without any concession on PH's part. They could easily have formulated their apology without any mention of territorial dispute and offered compensation on humanitarian grounds.
 
vincent

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Not to trivialize the situation, but Phillipine's responses to territorial disputes are actually laughable. They started something with China on Huangyan island and they completely lost control of the island because of it. They started something with Taiwan and it looks like they are gonna lose the disputed EEZ area as well. Incompetent fools. Wish they keep on doing it till they lose control over all the disputed regions.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
vincent said:
Not to trivialize the situation, but Phillipine's responses to territorial disputes are actually laughable. They started something with China on Huangyan island and they completely lost control of the island because of it. They started something with Taiwan and it looks like they are gonna lose the disputed EEZ area as well. Incompetent fools. Wish they keep on doing it till they lose control over all the disputed regions.
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What's even more laughable is that Taiwan had *no intention* of pushing for a territorial dispute. PH pretty much pushed them into it.
 
shen

shen

Senior Member
Jeff Head said:
Actually, that's not a slap in the face at all by the US. What it is is the Global Inquirer spinning it (even the very title of the article) to be ludicrously pro Phillipines. But that is what that particular news outlet does all the time.

The response by the US Ambassador was a clinical response that simply stated what the Philippines has stated to date. That they regretted it and would be investigating it...and that is what the PH said, and, in and of itself is not a bad thing.

But the Phillipines is really failing to do those things, or act like they in fact "regret" anything.

So, please do not get caught in the PH and Global Inquirer spin trap. They are trying to focus attention away from the incident itself and the Phillipines failure to adequately respond and then somehow spin that to indicate the US is ok with it.

But the US is not okay with what they are doing, they just diplomatically said that the US is ok with what the PH government initially said. My guess is that the US will try and avoid taking sides in this at all...but the PH press and their officials will try to use anything said to their benefit. But they better be careful how far they try to make that go.

The PH government is on a fool's errand if they think this will just go away and be forgotten and act like they have done a "good" thing here.

Very bad and pitiful mistake on their part IMHO. Taiwan will use this to hurt the Phillipines and to solidify their own claims in the area...and other nations will understand why, and not oppose it internationally.

The PH officials cannot even see what they are doing to themselves. They are actually strengthening the position of Tawan in the longer standing and more important (long term) disputes. And they are doing it over an obvious mistake on their part that resulted in the killing of a Taiwan citizen. They are going to lose far, far more in the long run. They would be well served to simply say, "We are sorry, and we are going to take care of the family of the man whom was killed," and then do so, and do so handsomely.

That would have gotten them out of this. What they are doing now is simply digging their hole deeper, and it's going to cost them far, far more.
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I'm not sure this incident stems from a "mistake". According to Taiwanese report, the Filipino coast guard repeatedly hail the fishing vessel, asking them to identify their nationality, and opened fire after knowing that the ship is Taiwanese not Chinese. The shooting was intentional, and they intentionally targeted Taiwanese. The question that remains is whether it is the official policy of Filipino government to open fire on Taiwanese fishing vessels. If the crewmen were acting without order, they should be arrested, tried and jailed. If they are not jailed, it means the Filipino government has a policy of firing on unarmed foreign vessels. Not a mistake, rather a crime according to international laws.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
shen said:
I'm not sure this incident stems from a "mistake". According to Taiwanese report, the Filipino coast guard repeatedly hail the fishing vessel, asking them to identify their nationality, and opened fire after knowing that the ship is Taiwanese not Chinese. The shooting was intentional, and they intentionally targeted Taiwanese.
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Well, that is a pretty big presumption based on hear-say evidence. I am not willing to go that far at this point.

I believe it got tense out there and a gung-ho commander of a small PH Coast Guard boat over reacted. Given what we know at this point, that's as far as I am willing to take it.

shen said:
The question that remains is whether it is the official policy of Filipino government to open fire on Taiwanese fishing vessels. If the crewmen were acting without order, they should be arrested, tried and jailed. If they are not jailed, it means the Filipino government has a policy of firing on unarmed foreign vessels. Not a mistake, rather a crime according to international laws.
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Again, I will not go that far at this point. But I agree in either case that the people on the scene who ordered the shooting and took part in it need to be apprehended and tried and punished for their crimes.

If they are not, I am not willing to make the huge leap that this means that somehow it is the official PH position to shoot Taiwanese. That makes no sense. The PH have a lot of economic ties and dependencies on Taiwan for trade, technology, goods, and giving their citizens good jobs.

What I am willing to say is that if the PH does not bring those people to justice, then they somehow believe that face-saving, and avoiding responsibility for the action of the people operating in their offical capabcity are over-riding very basic moral, and humnan rights considerations. If they do that, then the PH government should have to pay a high price in economic sanctions, fines, legal claims, etc. for that...and that they will lose on the international scene in terms of their territorial claims and EEZ as well. All far, far more expensive than simply taking care of this incident responsibly, as they should.
 
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kwaigonegin

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Jeff Head said:
Well, that is a pretty big presumption based on hear-say evidence. I am not willing to go that far at this point.

I believe it got tense out there and a gung-ho cammander of a small PH Coast Guard boat over reacted. Given what we know at this point, that's as far as I am willing to take it.

Again, I will not go that far at this point. But I agree in either case that the people on the scene who ordered the shooting and took part in it need to be apprehended and tried and punished for their crimes.

If they are not, I am not willing to make the leap that it is the official PH position to shoot Taiwanese. That makes no sense. The PH have a lot of economic ties and dependencies on Taiwan for trade, technology, goods, and giving their citizens good jobs.

What I am willing to say is that if the PH does not bring those people to justice, then they somehow believe that face-saving, and avoiding responsibility for the action of the people operating in their offical capabcity are being allowed to over-ride very basic moral, and humnan rights considerations. If they do that, then the PH government should have to pay a high price in economic sanctions, fines, legal claims, etc. for that...and that they probably are going to lose on the international scene in terms of their territorial claims and EEZ as well. All far, far more expensive than simply taking care of this incident responsibly, as they should.
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yup.... at some point, ego and blind nationalistic fervor will overcome any logical or even moral judgement. Unfortunately I think PH as a country has gone past that point. Even if some high level PH officials genuinely do believe that the PH side was the aggressor and wrongly fired at the fishing boat, they have collectively since gone past the point and that any government officials saying sorry and proceed to give a measly couple hundred grand to the fisherman's kin would be viewed as a pariah, weakling and 'apologist'.

It would be political suicide!! or depending on where or what state they come from maybe even a life or death situation for that unfortunate politician.

If I were PH I would just meet secretly with the TW officials and see if they could do this behind close doors.
 
J

joshuatree

Captain
Jeff Head said:
But the US is not okay with what they are doing, they just diplomatically said that the US is ok with what the PH government initially said. My guess is that the US will try and avoid taking sides in this at all...but the PH press and their officials will try to use anything said to their benefit. But they better be careful how far they try to make that go.
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This reflects a bigger systemic problem. The MDT the US has with the Philippines creates as much problem as it creates stability. Because the US is walking the fine line of backing up the MDT to instill confidence among its regional allies and maintain "street cred", it does embolden the Philippines when the US maintains ambiguity on what scenarios it will come to its aid or not. I'm sure it's given the US some headaches when the Philippines more often than not, speaks loudly but carries a little stick. We've seen so many announcements and false starts on their military modernization.
 
AssassinsMace

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
An apology was the least of value. Aquino waiting to apologize after the deadline was simple bitchiness on his part therefore insincere. The apology is getting all the attention when there's the compensation and most important the persecution of the guilty. This is where there might be foot-dragging because it's as unclear by the reports who's actually responsible. I read one report that it was just a fisheries boat and had armed Coast Guard personnel on board for protection. Does the captain of fisheries department vessel have the authority to order the Coast Guard members to fire? I read another that it wasn't the captain's decision to fire but the commanding officer of the armed members of the crew. Some reports say the captain was held responsible. A lot of speculative information just like when the incident first happened and they turned out to be lies. I expect the Philippines military is highly corrupt and in a powerful position and if it was a Coast Guard officer or whoever that gave the order to fire, they're going to be protected. So therefore the most important gesture of sincerity and acting responsible on the Philippines part won't be fulfilled. Waiting for the deadline to pass to do the most simple and least of value in apologizing is a gauge of where it's going.

It is to the US's best interests to calm this situation down so of course they're going to laud the apology. I expect with the Japanese again rewriting WWII in their favor and this situation is giving Obama along with domestic scandals a big headache. All of these happening at the same time is probably too much for the Obama Administration and any of them getting worse is probably an unrecoverable disaster for him.
 
Equation

Equation

Lieutenant General
joshuatree said:
This reflects a bigger systemic problem. The MDT the US has with the Philippines creates as much problem as it creates stability. Because the US is walking the fine line of backing up the MDT to instill confidence among its regional allies and maintain "street cred", it does embolden the Philippines when the US maintains ambiguity on what scenarios it will come to its aid or not. I'm sure it's given the US some headaches when the Philippines more often than not, speaks loudly but carries a little stick. We've seen so many announcements and false starts on their military modernization.
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If the Filipino government believes that, than they are in world of hurt already. The US made it clear that they are NOT picking any side regarding any territorial disputes among the Asian nations.
 
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