News on China's scientific and technological development.

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WTAN

Junior Member
Registered Member
weig2000 said:
Apparently, the US semiconductor bans on Chinese companies have started to rally the Chinese industry behind the drive to be self-sufficiency and indigenous.
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Unfortunately this article sounds like a Load of Bull, especially the part where it will take SMIC 3 yrs to produce 28nm Chips on a localised production line.
(A Japanese owned newspaper quoting a Taiwanese "Expert" is the biggest Joke)

As far as i know SMIC is already building a 28nm Localised production line in Beijing. China's Semiconductor Equipment manufacturers have already developed 28nm Equipment. They are currently working on 14nm Equipment and will start soon on 7nm equipment. Huawei will build their own 28nm FAB early next year.

I made a mistake recently with describing the new SMEE Equipment. SMEE is currently mass producing 2 types of new equipment.
First is a 65nm node Dry Lithograph.
Second is a 45nm node Immersion Lithograph. The 45nm Immersion Litho can produce 14nm, 22nm and 28nm Chips with Multi Patterning.
So SMEE can actually provide a Lithograph now, to local FABs with the ability to make 14nm Chips. The only thing holding the FABs back is the Localised 14nm Equipment which is still under development.

SMIC has been producing 28nm Chips for at least 5yrs years before moving on to 14nm. They have a lot of experience. SMIC can also use reconditioned Manufacturing equipment for 28nm if it is really necessary, where parts are provided locally.
So the whole idea that it will take 3 years to make 28nm Chips sounds extremely unlikely and false.

Also circumstances have changed, with the Government giving more funding and support for Chip making, you can expect many things to happen much quicker.
 
W

WTAN

Junior Member
Registered Member
ansy1968 said:
Hi WTAN,

If the sanction on SMIC do happen, what will their course of action will be, suing is out of the question? what about their operations? can they replace their critical equipment with domestic one, pieces by pieces so that it wont impede operation? or all at once, sorry for the stupid question, from what I learned from KYli, localizer and you, is that its a complex process, one missing pieces will derail the whole process.
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Actually, even if Trump does not go ahead to sanction SMIC, the damage has already been done. Chinese FABs will find it too risky to buy American equipment. The next President might just finish what Trump did not do. This is bad news for all American equipment manufacturers as well as Japanese and European.

I have done some analysis and i conclude that SMIC will not be affected much at all by this American sanctions. Remember that the SMIC 14nm Chip production business only makes up a small amount of revenue for SMIC. If i can recall only 2-5% of SMIC total revenue. Can someone please find this article?
Most of SMIC revenue comes from sales of Chips 22nm/28nm and above.
Worse case scenario the 14nm FAB will be shut down.
The other FABs can switch over to using the SMEE 45nm Immersion Lithograph and also the new 28nm Immersion Lithograph. As i have said, China already has produced a localised 28nm production line which can be used to replace the foreign equipment. Reconditioned equipment can also be used with spares provided by local companies.
The sanctions will only affect SMICs 14nm and future 7nm Chip plans. But plans are underway to address the production of 14nm and 7nm using the new 28nm Immersion Lithograph.
SMIC will survive this and come out stronger.
Also if SMIC is sanctioned, it can continue to produce 14nm Chips for Huawei 5g Base Stations and Mid Range Mobile Phones.
 
A

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
WTAN said:
Unfortunately this article sounds like a Load of Bull, especially the part where it will take SMIC 3 yrs to produce 28nm Chips on a localised production line.
(A Japanese owned newspaper quoting a Taiwanese "Expert" is the biggest Joke)

As far as i know SMIC is already building a 28nm Localised production line in Beijing. China's Semiconductor Equipment manufacturers have already developed 28nm Equipment. They are currently working on 14nm Equipment and will start soon on 7nm equipment. Huawei will build their own 28nm FAB early next year.

I made a mistake recently with describing the new SMEE Equipment. SMEE is currently mass producing 2 types of new equipment.
First is a 65nm node Dry Lithograph.
Second is a 45nm node Immersion Lithograph. The 45nm Immersion Litho can produce 14nm, 22nm and 28nm Chips with Multi Patterning.
So SMEE can actually provide a Lithograph now, to local FABs with the ability to make 14nm Chips. The only thing holding the FABs back is the Localised 14nm Equipment which is still under development.

SMIC has been producing 28nm Chips for at least 5yrs years before moving on to 14nm. They have a lot of experience. SMIC can also use reconditioned Manufacturing equipment for 28nm if it is really necessary, where parts are provided locally.
So the whole idea that it will take 3 years to make 28nm Chips sounds extremely unlikely and false.

Also circumstances have changed, with the Government giving more funding and support for Chip making, you can expect many things to happen much quicker.
Click to expand...
Hi WTAN,

Reading from cntechpost about Huawei, they seem to be calm and very confident. We are more concern than they are :) .I think they will be more circumspect and quietly just work and avoid publicity. And it just give me hope from your post, KYli, localizer, skywatcher and others about the current China IC situation, I thank you all and I learn a lot:)
 
A

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
ansy1968 said:
Hi WTAN,

Reading from cntechpost about Huawei, they seem to be calm and very confident. We are more concern than they are :) .I think they will be more circumspect and quietly just work and avoid publicity. And it just give me hope from your post, KYli, localizer, skywatcher and others about the current China IC situation, I thank you all and I learn a lot:)
Click to expand...

Look at the situation now.

The sanctions have pushed Huawei to develop Chinese self-sufficiency in every technology.

Huawei now has access to unlimited funding for as long as it takes, until world class Chinese technology is developed in every field.

That is why Huawei is so calm.

I never though the US hardliners would be so stupid, but here we are.
 
M

machupicu

Junior Member
Registered Member
AndrewS said:
Look at the situation now.

The sanctions have pushed Huawei to develop Chinese self-sufficiency in every technology.

Huawei now has access to unlimited funding for as long as it takes, until world class Chinese technology is developed in every field.

That is why Huawei is so calm.

I never though the US hardliners would be so stupid, but here we are.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. China can achieve many great things. History tells us about that.
In the mid or late 50s(?) Mao asked for atomic tech from USSR which of course they denied the request, so China built its own team which detonated a-bomb in 1964,then thermo nuke +3 yrs later!
Then all kinds of projects: manned space mission, beidou, internet unicorns etc
China is steady with its 2025 goals for semi tech, they should and will be successful.
 
W

WTAN

Junior Member
Registered Member
Skywatcher said:
I thought Naura already made the necessary 14/16nm deposition equipment?
Click to expand...
They are still working on the 14nm Equipment but they are getting very close to having the entire production line.
An example is the CETC High Energy Ion Implantation Equipment which just achieved a breakthrough in June 2020, which is 2 months ago. CETC will have to produce a working prototype for verification etc.
They are getting close and i think everything will be ready sometime next year.
 
S

Skywatcher

Captain
WTAN said:
They are still working on the 14nm Equipment but they are getting very close to having the entire production line.
An example is the CETC High Energy Ion Implantation Equipment which just achieved a breakthrough in June 2020, which is 2 months ago. CETC will have to produce a working prototype for verification etc.
They are getting close and i think everything will be ready sometime next year.
Click to expand...
Ah, I thought the Promi series atomic layer deposition (physical deposition) was in production (though apparently Naura doesn't have a vapor deposition equipment for 14nm brought to market yet)

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M

machupicu

Junior Member
Registered Member
China’s top memory chip maker can’t wean itself off US for now
  • Yangtze Memory Technologies Co currently gets more than 80 per cent of its chip manufacturing equipment from the US and Japan
  • The company operates a US$22 billion facility in Wuhan that is by far China’s most advanced factory for 3D NAND flash memory chips
China’s top flash memory chip maker sees no easy way to replace US chip manufacturing equipment, underscoring how a further crackdown on the supply of American technology will devastate the local
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industry.


Yangtze Memory Technologies Co currently gets more than 80 per cent of its equipment from the US and Japan, according to Zheng Jiuli, vice-president in charge of supply chain management. While some Chinese suppliers have made breakthroughs in areas including etching, cleaning and coating, there are not enough local alternatives to replace everything, he added.

"
Long-term investments in innovation and R&D have led to technological advantages” at US and Japanese suppliers, Zheng said. “This is also the reason why their products are currently in the mainstream and are difficult to replace.”


The deficit of basic chip making equipment complicates Beijing’s ambitions to reduce its reliance on its geopolitical rival.

..
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Weaasel

Senior Member
Registered Member
weig2000 said:
Apparently, the US semiconductor bans on Chinese companies have started to rally the Chinese industry behind the drive to be self-sufficiency and indigenous.
Click to expand...

Dependence on a diversified network of global supply chains might make theoretical rational market economic sense, but it does not provide for technological and national security as the United States has demonstrated in its actions to starve Huawei and other Chinese technology companies of chips and chip making equipment bad materials. It has not just been through threatening sanctions against companies that sell goods to Chinese companies possessing US content, but also persuading the governments of other countries to prevent their companies from doing business with Chinese companies that the United States does not want them to. The example of ASML with regards to having it's sale of EUV machines to SMIC is a clear example of that.

Those worshippers of the market have now clearly seen the extent to which the United States is not prepared to follow the principles of the free market since its ban of export of US content products to the world's largest market for chips, semiconductors, chip making equipment, and semiconductor manufacturing materials is hurting the profitability of American companies themselves.

So to hell with market rational economics, it is in the interest of any country to maximize tech security by being capable of producing anything worth producing domestically. Those that have the wherewithal to do so, such as China should pursue that to the utmost.
 
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