News on China's scientific and technological development.

K

KYli

Brigadier
nastya1 said:
Well the sector encompass alot of areas.

Also jet and aviation manufacturing tech is not up to par
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Does it matter? Both civilian aviation and semiconductor sectors are supposed to become mostly self-sufficient in 2025 and competitive in 2030. Civilian aviation can wait. The only problem with semiconductor sector is that it can't wait. But what America has done is helped China realized the importance of self reliance and it would ensure all those naysayers to keep their mouth shut. Trump has actually helped China to conduct a stress test.


nastya1 said:
If you dont make them then at least make sure you bought enough.
If something bad happen it wont stop your flow.

If TSMC and Samsung got sanctioned today it wont stop their flow.

It might affect their future acquisition but thata another story
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That is complete nonsense. If the US decided to sanction TSMC or Samsung, both companies would be forced to shut down their operations. Those ASML machines and semiconductor equipments are subject to users agreement that the Dutch company or American companies can shut them down all down if they wanted.
 
T

tamsen_ikard

Junior Member
Registered Member
free_6ix9ine said:
Well no one country dominates the semiconductor sector anyways. So what's your point?

Does Intel fab it's own chips? Does TSMC make it's own EUV machine, does ASML make its own lenses?
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Every country that owns semiconductor supply chain component is an American military vassal. EU, Japan, Korea, Taiwan. All have US military bases or heavily dependent on US military protection. If US makes an order, they will listen.


ILikeChina said:
^^
More money doesn't matter at this point. More talent is needed and experience.
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SPOOPYSKELETON said:
Personally, I don't think decoupling is the right solution. If China was actually willing to strike back against America for these semicon sanctions, then there would be no need for decoupling. China would have the dominant position the relationship, which obviously suits her well.

Instead, what is needed is an expansion of options to make retaliation more effective. Current options such as the rare earth card are not used for a reason.

In order to expand options, the battlefield, or various fronts on which the competition is being waged, should also be expanded. Ideally, China would become more involved in areas around America's weak spots, so as to better apply pressure. The Middle East is of course dear to America's heart. I think there are many possibilities there.

But doing this requires diplomatic clout and savvyness that is not evident in the PRCs current conduct. I would mark the development of covert soft power as a priority as a result.
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SPOOPYSKELETON said:
No, this is not what I am getting at. China needs measures that are far less extreme and that can be applied to smaller issues like Huawei. You don't use nukes every time someone threatens war or intrudes on your border after all.
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Money IS talent. In this globalized world, you can buy anything with money. Many American engineers and scientists will flock to China if China offers 1 million dollar per year for a post that pays 100K in the US. But obviously China is not in that kind of desperation mode right now. If China was really serious about developing Chip industry, they could take measures that will sacrifice their advantages in other ways in order to advance chip industry.

For example, if China mandates that any company that does not sell to Huawei will not be able to sell to any Chinese company or any other company that produces in China. So even Apple cannot buy chips to put in iphones if TSMC does not sell to Huawei.

Option 2, Any one that buys or sells anything from and to China cannot apply US sanctions on Chinese companies or individuals. Anyone that does, will be cutoff from buying and selling to China and Chinese companies.

Option 3, All Phones and laptops sold in China must have chips and OS made in China. So, even Apple will have to develop a Chinese OS and buy Chinese made chips if they want to sell.

If China seriously puts a line in the sand, that will halt the entire chip supply chain at risk, then obviously US will back down. But this will create serious doubt about the reliability of China itself as a manufacturing hub. Thus, China will not take such action to force US sell to Huawei again.

But ofcourse they did a cost benefit analysis and decided not to pursue such strategies.

China can retaliate in many ways. But retaliation is not in China's interest right now. Their main goal is to get rich as fast as possible. The richer they are, the more powerful they will be and more capable to deal with US threats. So, if they take measures that will cause a loss in business sentiment and investor confidence, then that will cause their economic growth to slow down.


China doesn't want to retaliate even one bit because Trump admin will love it. Retaliation means more decoupling, which is what they prefer. They would love to completely cutoff China similar to Iran or North Korea. But they can't. But if China plays tango, then they will get more chances to decouple further.


China will have to swallow its pride and keep getting slaps in order to make money. The more money they make, the more money they will have to spend on military and civilian tech. The more money they make, the bigger their consumer market will be. The more money they make, the more educated their population will be.


China will have to be absolutely shameless in order to make money. Stealing, Cheating and begging. China will have to do it all in order to tackle European-Euro-Settled hegemony that has been ongoing for 300 years. The advantage built up over 300 years cannot be over come if you don't swallow your pride.
 
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nastya1

Junior Member
Registered Member
KYli said:
That is complete nonsense. If the US decided to sanction TSMC or Samsung, both companies would be forced to shut down their operations. Those ASML machines and semiconductor equipments are subject to users agreement that the Dutch company or American companies can shut them down all down if they wanted.
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Those users agreements only valid if you choose to abide.

What if someone chose to ignore it? How does ASML force to shut down the equipments?
 
manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
nastya1 said:
The joke is being high on achivements and overlooked on its fatal weakness.

If you know your weakness you dont need a trade war or ban to bring it to your attention.
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Fatal weakness implies that something or someone died or was defeated. China's only starting its prominence in lithography. And like I said, it's not a high on its achievements; it has nothing to do with its achievements. It was what made economical sense to do, regardless of any other technologies, and lithography, before Trump, did not make economical sense. The only thing that is true here is that if China and its companies were perfect, they would have had the strategic foresight to have a full lithography chain ready the instant Trump attempted any ban. But for many reasons already mentioned, mostly that Chinese companies wanted the easy way to earn money, that did not happen. Nobody is perfect, but if you cannot be perfect, the next best thing is to have Chinese speed of development.
nastya1 said:
Its research paper for science not specifically for mass manufacturing.

Laser is processed point to point serially.
While traditional light litho is processed concurrently on all area on mask.
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Your question was how can a laser be used to do mass manufacturing, NOT how can this laser do things in the exact way that another machine does it. And it's a stupid question for anyone who understands lasers. It's ok if you asked it because you don't understand but for someone like you to call these scientists from both China and America bullshit (because Americans peer-reviewed it and accepted it) is like a child holding his crayon picture of a rocket saying that NASA's design is "bullshit."

Critical questions are, how many lasers are there at once and how long does the laser need to focus on one area to be done. With many lasers in tandem etching very quickly, of course mass-production can be achieved. I work in genetics; there is a machine called the NovaSeq. It can, using a laser, sequence your entire genome, 3,000,000,000 (3 billion) base pairs in a few hours. That's the volume of work that lasers can handle and this machine is only a little bigger than a washing machine. Imagine what a machine larger than a room can do.
 
free_6ix9ine

free_6ix9ine

Junior Member
Registered Member
manqiangrexue said:
Fatal weakness implies that something or someone died or was defeated. China's only starting its prominence in lithography. And like I said, it's not a high on its achievements; it has nothing to do with its achievements. It was what made economical sense to do, regardless of any other technologies, and lithography, before Trump, did not make economical sense. The only thing that is true here is that if China and its companies were perfect, they would have had the strategic foresight to have a full lithography chain ready the instant Trump attempted any ban. But for many reasons already mentioned, mostly that Chinese companies wanted the easy way to earn money, that did not happen. Nobody is perfect, but if you cannot be perfect, the next best thing is to have Chinese speed of development.

Your question was how can a laser be used to do mass manufacturing, NOT how can this laser do things in the exact way that another machine does it. And it's a stupid question for anyone who understands lasers. It's ok if you asked it because you don't understand but for someone like you to call these scientists from both China and America bullshit (because Americans peer-reviewed it and accepted it) is like a child holding his crayon picture of a rocket saying that NASA's design is "bullshit."

Critical questions are, how many lasers are there at once and how long does the laser need to focus on one area to be done. With many lasers in tandem etching very quickly, of course mass-production can be achieved. I work in genetics; there is a machine called the NovaSeq. It can, using a laser, sequence your entire genome, 3,000,000,000 (3 billion) base pairs in a few hours. That's the volume of work that lasers can handle and this machine is only a little bigger than a washing machine. Imagine what a machine larger than a room can do.
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Multiple solutions to the same problem. EUV is not end all be all.
 
N

nastya1

Junior Member
Registered Member
manqiangrexue said:
Fatal weakness implies that something or someone died or was defeated. China's only starting its prominence in lithography. And like I said, it's not a high on its achievements; it has nothing to do with its achievements. It was what made economical sense to do, regardless of any other technologies, and lithography, before Trump, did not make economical sense. The only thing that is true here is that if China and its companies were perfect, they would have had the strategic foresight to have a full lithography chain ready the instant Trump attempted any ban. But for many reasons already mentioned, mostly that Chinese companies wanted the easy way to earn money, that did not happen. Nobody is perfect, but if you cannot be perfect, the next best thing is to have Chinese speed of development.

Your question was how can a laser be used to do mass manufacturing, NOT how can this laser do things in the exact way that another machine does it. And it's a stupid question for anyone who understands lasers. It's ok if you asked it because you don't understand but for someone like you to call these scientists from both China and America bullshit (because Americans peer-reviewed it and accepted it) is like a child holding his crayon picture of a rocket saying that NASA's design is "bullshit."

Critical questions are, how many lasers are there at once and how long does the laser need to focus on one area to be done. With many lasers in tandem etching very quickly, of course mass-production can be achieved. I work in genetics; there is a machine called the NovaSeq. It can, using a laser, sequence your entire genome, 3,000,000,000 (3 billion) base pairs in a few hours. That's the volume of work that lasers can handle and this machine is only a little bigger than a washing machine. Imagine what a machine larger than a room can do.
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Signs already there China is behind because of neglect
If you have to wait for someone to die or defeated. then you can say the samething about indians , they can still surpass China one day even though they are much behind according to your theory. They havent died yet.


You comparing focus laser point at one point while traditional light litho have millions of light ray entering in parallel spreading to all area. who is faster?
You may think focused laser is fast enough but your competitors are much faster than you.
 
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