News on China's scientific and technological development.

manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
nastya1 said:
Signs already there China is behind because of neglect
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You have the sequence of events backwards. China was far far behind, and suddenly is catching up very quickly. It's still behind, but gaining fast. Your sentence, perhaps due to inadequate understanding of English, or perhaps due to an inadequacy in analysis, makes it sound like China was ahead or equal but fell behind due to negligence.

nastya1 said:
If you have to wait for someone to die or defeated. then you can say the samething about indians , they can still surpass China one day even though they are much behind according to your theory. They havent died yet.
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I didn't say the Indians had a fatal anything. And yes, of course India can surpass China one day if they work very hard and China does not. Anybody can overtake anybody. Isn't that obvious? Why did you bring it up as if you thought I would be obligated to disagree?

nastya1 said:
You comparing focus laser point at one point while traditional light litho have millions of light ray entering in parallel spreading to all area. who is faster?
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You're moving the goalpost. You first said that it's not capable of mass-production. Now you say it's not as fast as a traditional machine. Well, like I said, there are many variables including how many lasers, how fast, and how expensive the machine is to make and run. For example, if it is 10% as fast as a traditional lithography machine but 5% the cost and much smaller, it is better as a mass-producer.
 
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muddie

Junior Member
manqiangrexue said:
You have the sequence of events backwards. China was far far behind, and suddenly caught up very quickly. It's still behind, but gaining fast. Your sentence, perhaps due to inadequate understanding of English, makes it sound like China was ahead or equal but fell behind due to negligence.


I didn't say the Indians had a fatal anything. And yes, of course India can surpass China one day if they work very hard and China does not. Anybody can overtake anybody. Isn't that obvious? Why did you bring it up as if you thought I cannot agree?


You're moving the goalpost. You first said that it's not capable of mass-production. Now you say it's not as fast as a traditional machine. Well, like I said, there are many variables including how many lasers, how fast, and how expensive the machine is to make and run. For example, if it is 10% as fast a a traditional lithography machine but 5% the cost and much smaller, it is better as a mass-producer.
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People here blaming Huawei and other tech companies for using U.S. tech fail to understand that the reason China was able to catch up so quickly to the West (and even excel in some areas) is because China didn't have to start from scratch.

It's always easier to use what is readily available than to build everything yourself from scratch.
 
K

KYli

Brigadier
nastya1 said:
Those users agreements only valid if you choose to abide.

What if someone chose to ignore it? How does ASML force to shut down the equipments?
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ASML has employees monitored these machines daily. Without ASML employees, these machines wouldn't be operational. It isn't like you can jailbreak these machines.
 
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nastya1

Junior Member
Registered Member
manqiangrexue said:
You have the sequence of events backwards. China was far far behind, and suddenly caught up very quickly. It's still behind, but gaining fast. Your sentence, perhaps due to inadequate understanding of English, makes it sound like China was ahead or equal but fell behind due to negligence.

I didn't say the Indians had a fatal anything. And yes, of course India can surpass China one day if they work very hard and China does not. Anybody can overtake anybody. Isn't that obvious? Why did you bring it up as if you thought I cannot agree?


You're moving the goalpost. You first said that it's not capable of mass-production. Now you say it's not as fast as a traditional machine. Well, like I said, there are many variables including how many lasers, how fast, and how expensive the machine is to make and run. For example, if it is 10% as fast a a traditional lithography machine but 5% the cost and much smaller, it is better as a mass-producer.
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China was ahead. in the 80s.
manqiangrexue said:
You have the sequence of events backwards. China was far far behind, and suddenly is catching up very quickly. It's still behind, but gaining fast. Your sentence, perhaps due to inadequate understanding of English, or perhaps due to an inadequacy in analysis, makes it sound like China was ahead or equal but fell behind due to negligence.


I didn't say the Indians had a fatal anything. And yes, of course India can surpass China one day if they work very hard and China does not. Anybody can overtake anybody. Isn't that obvious? Why did you bring it up as if you thought I would be obligated to disagree?


You're moving the goalpost. You first said that it's not capable of mass-production. Now you say it's not as fast as a traditional machine. Well, like I said, there are many variables including how many lasers, how fast, and how expensive the machine is to make and run. For example, if it is 10% as fast as a traditional lithography machine but 5% the cost and much smaller, it is better as a mass-producer.
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1)You have no understanding of the history.
China history of semiconductor dated back to the 50s and in the early days they got their own litho equipment and were self sufficient. They were not behind. And later they fell behind.

2)during the 90s China chose the easier tech to work with and purposely avoid the difficult ones. It was obvious.

As long as you optimistic about indians and huawei altogether. I am good at that i just want to point out.

Focus laser method is not comparable to industry standard in terms of speed.
 
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tamsen_ikard

Junior Member
Registered Member
manqiangrexue said:
I didn't say the Indians had a fatal anything. And yes, of course India can surpass China one day if they work very hard and China does not. Anybody can overtake anybody. Isn't that obvious? Why did you bring it up as if you thought I would be obligated to disagree?
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India can never surpass China even if they work hard. They are a different kind of society built up on totally different set of cultural norms and priorities. China's advantages come from being a single ethnic (90%) country with a long history of meritocracy in governance and a Confucian ethic that prizes money making over religion and prizes order over everything else. This is a cultural mindset built over 2 thousand year.

India comparatively is more like a continent than a state with many different languages. Their whole society is organized around religion and religious practices like Caste system which is not meritocratic and never had meritocratic culture in previous ages. They have a huge religious minority that used to be former rulers and colonizers (muslim) and surrounded by two huge countries of the same religion (Pakistan, Bangladesh) that always creates religious tension and animosity. Pakistan and Bangladesh will never accept a strong India since that will be an existential threat to them. Indians also never really accept their muslim minority since they always see them as suspicious.

India's problems are inherent in its society and culture and geopolitical situation. It will take centuries to overcome them, if ever. They are destined to remain poor until they solve these issues and be able to focus on money making as the sole national goal, like China did.

You cannot become like China without having a culture and history like China.
 
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nastya1

Junior Member
Registered Member
Sleepyjam said:
But it is used for mass production
light source = laser
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Laser generated light yes with traditional litho but when that light entering the wafer they were spread out not focused unlike the one in research paper. The reason they focus the laser at the research paper is so they can do cutting and shaping the wafer. One point at a time.
 
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nastya1

Junior Member
Registered Member
KYli said:
ASML has employees monitored these machines daily. Without ASML employees, these machines wouldn't be operational. It isn't like you can jailbreak these machines.
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Lol. Come on. No companies can afford have employees doing monitoring equipments daily basis.
Without their employees monitoring the machines wont work?
Wow come on. Be real.
Companies paid for the machine full yet need a ASML guy to give permission onsite on daily basis.

Its pretty wild
 
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