News on China's scientific and technological development.

Xizor

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
I'd like to know the status of CHina looking at other architectures like RISC-V. Surely x86 or ARM isn't a safe bet. Better yet, What stands of China's plans to have a unified architecture for the entire country ?

It's not good to continue depending on a fancy Linux fork ( or worse Flavor) and a licensed ISA. Surely, China needs to develop its own ISAs and OS. It may try developing these for the server markets too.
 
daifo

daifo

Major
Registered Member
Loongson is China's MIP processor that is widely used by the gov,research, and pla. There is some relationship between RISC-v and MIPS. I imagine the Chinese gov is using it because they have full control of the instruction set.

The x86 is used via relationship with Via a Taiwanese company. Not sure what the legal structure is, but I am guesing VIA won some ownership or perpetual license during the CPU clone wars. It seems Zhaoxin has to wait for Intel/AMD patent expiration to include newer instruction set. I think the general public prefers the x86 since it is compatible with the most apps in Linux and windows.

One can only guess that ARM is trying to restructure itself so they can do business with China without any future issue. However, it is own by a Japanese company...

All the technology to the Linux kernel has been open source and many flavors also abide to open sourcing their core libraries. IMO, Linux is the way to go as there is no point re-inventing the wheel as almost the entire software industry runs on some variation/relationship to linux/unix . Even windows has added a "native linux" onto win10 via wls2. The main problem is the gov may not be able to install it's monitoring software... lol
 
Xizor

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
daifo said:
Loongson is China's MIP processor that is widely used by the gov,research, and pla. There is some relationship between RISC-v and MIPS. I imagine the Chinese gov is using it because they have full control of the instruction set.

The x86 is used via relationship with Via a Taiwanese company. Not sure what the legal structure is, but I am guesing VIA won some ownership or perpetual license during the CPU clone wars. It seems Zhaoxin has to wait for Intel/AMD patent expiration to include newer instruction set. I think the general public prefers the x86 since it is compatible with the most apps in Linux and windows.

One can only guess that ARM is trying to restructure itself so they can do business with China without any future issue. However, it is own by a Japanese company...

All the technology to the Linux kernel has been open source and many flavors also abide to open sourcing their core libraries. IMO, Linux is the way to go as there is no point re-inventing the wheel as almost the entire software industry runs on some variation/relationship to linux/unix . Even windows has added a "native linux" onto win10 via wls2. The main problem is the gov may not be able to install it's monitoring software... lol
Click to expand...
The government doesn't need to "install" any monitoring software. They just need to have "special" relationship with the software companies where they get access to the servers and info. Look at how nicely Mr.Sam does it. So elegant.
C'mon @daifo :)
 
AssassinsMace

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Let's just hope Beijing was preparing for this very day. If so I can understand why they didn't roll out with domestic technology immediately because the West would've complained to the point of taking trade action and also the infrastructure costs of switching would've probably been big. Now the US is forcing this to happen. Time for the US's nightmare scenario to become a reality... irrelevancy.
 
T

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
daifo said:
Loongson is China's MIP processor that is widely used by the gov,research, and pla. There is some relationship between RISC-v and MIPS. I imagine the Chinese gov is using it because they have full control of the instruction set.

The x86 is used via relationship with Via a Taiwanese company. Not sure what the legal structure is, but I am guesing VIA won some ownership or perpetual license during the CPU clone wars. It seems Zhaoxin has to wait for Intel/AMD patent expiration to include newer instruction set. I think the general public prefers the x86 since it is compatible with the most apps in Linux and windows.

One can only guess that ARM is trying to restructure itself so they can do business with China without any future issue. However, it is own by a Japanese company...
, giv
All the technology to the Linux kernel has been open source and many flavors also abide to open sourcing their core libraries. IMO, Linux is the way to go as there is no point re-inventing the wheel as almost the entire software industry runs on some variation/relationship to linux/unix . Even windows has added a "native linux" onto win10 via wls2. The main problem is the gov may not be able to install it's monitoring software... lol
Click to expand...

Huawei already reinvented the wheel. Harmony OS is not Linux. It has its own proprietary micro kernel architecture. In comparison, Linux would already be an old legacy OS based on an ever expanding monolithic kernel. Let's just say that microkernel OS has fundamental advantages especially with regards to OS maintenance, security and latency, which can be of great benefit when it comes to scaling (server, cloud, supercomputing) and IOT.

In fact, Harmony OS has great potential for everything IOT from TV to smart automobiles. It might be the most ground breaking development with Chinese IT sector yet that can lead to OS independence from the west, and one that can go beyond borders.

Even creating your own instruction set should not be too hard. That wheel has also been reinvented for the Chinese supercomputers years ago. Legacy instruction sets like MIPS, SPARC, ARM and X86 are their own performance bottleneck.

Huawei doesn't need US government pressure to develop their own operating system. They already started long ago in order for Harmony OS to be able to reach this stage where it is already real world applicable. Even though it was unveiled in 2019, development for that would have taken place years ago given the advanced state of the OS, since it was already deployed in Huawei and Honor smart TVs.

Where Huawei saw the writing on the wall was when Google was developing its own Fuschia OS. Fuschia would be the replacement of Android and ChromeOS, and despite saying that Fuschia uses the open source Zircon microkernel, I doubt that Fuschia would be as open as Android was, which is in turn isn't as open as Linux (for those who don't understand this, Android uses the Linux kernel.) That means those who depend on open source Android --- Android without GMS --- like Amazon and the Chinese mobile industry --- are going to get screwed when Fuschia comes out. Ironically, the first devices Fuschia was tested on was certain Huawei devices. (People forget that the last Google Nexus prior to the first Pixel, was made by Huawei, but Fuschia was also tested on non Nexus Huawei devices.)

Having said this, Samsung has been trying to do its own OS, first called Bada, then Tizen, without much commercial success except for smart TVs and smartwatches. So how can Huawei succeed when a giant like Samsung has failed. The answer is that Samsung doesn't have a huge captive domestic market like Huawei has. The most brilliant development in the history of Chinese IT --- and the biggest mistake Google has ever made --- was to voluntarily leave the Chinese market because Sergey Brin --- with vocal opposition from Eric Schmidt to the point of having shouting matches --- didn't agree on manually censoring search results to meet Chinese government requirements. Something that Apple and Microsoft had no problem doing. This enabled the development of an entire Chinese software ecosystem that is non Google dependent.
 
supercat

supercat

Major
U.K. policy makers just cannot make up their mind about Huawei. One day they wanted to ban it completely. The next day the government was warned that the cost would be too high to ban Huawei completely so they have to make a U-turn.
Britain 'faces phone signal blackouts lasting TWO DAYS if it bans Huawei', telecom chiefs warn
Click to expand...
  • Any tightening of restrictions could lead to higher prices and delay in faster 5G
  • Boris Johnson expected to announce U-turn on allowing Huawei to build network
  • Ministers considering axing company amid fears network could be used to spy
  • It comes after a dossier accused China of trying to manipulate key figures in UK
Click to expand...
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S

Skywatcher

Captain
ansy1968 said:
Hi Skywatcher,

Good day,

So almost .5 gen behind (IF, according to plan), Now I know the reason why Samsung is nervous and is planning a huge investment to remain within reach of TSMC , they are worried that SMIC might overtake them due to State,the private investment support and the momentum of China Hi -Tech development.

A newbee question what's the difference between 3nm and 2nm, I know that the smaller the better in terms of power and density, why did TSMC go that route?
Click to expand...
Higher chip density, and TSMC's edge in the foundry essentially relies on always having the cutting edge process.
 
broadsword

broadsword

Brigadier
supercat said:
U.K. policy makers just cannot make up their mind about Huawei. One day they wanted to ban it completely. The next day the government was warned that the cost would be too high to ban Huawei completely so they have to make a U-turn.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Click to expand...

The U-turn is from using Huawei, not from the expected ban.
 
AssassinsMace

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
That's the funny thing about European countries is they seem to have to have the top of technology commercially used. Everything 5G in the US won't be for a while but the European countries have be up their in the world no matter what hence why they're caught in this bind. I know it seems there are Chinese even in this forum where they need Western acceptance in order to feel China has accomplished something. They say Chinese 5G technology is best in the world yet they need the West to like it? I'm perfectly fine with China only using the best 5G in the world. Just like China will be the artificial intelligence play ground, 5g will be also. China is on top on artificial intelligence because of it's not as restrictive on data collection as Western countries. Just like China will have the biggest 5G infrastructure in place far ahead of the US where developers can play with more in China than anywhere else. They say you can be out in the middle of nowhere in China and you'll still get a cell phone signal. Not the US. That's because they're not going build cell phone infrastructure where there's hardly anyone there to use it meaning they don't want to spend the money. Same thing is going to happen with 5G. And now it's going to cost the West even more. They act like money grows on trees yet they complain about how the world is ripping them off. It's funny they're working to isolate China but they still think China has to follow the rules. China can steal all their secrets through cyber espionage all they want. China can screw their computer systems all they want. China can counterfeit all their products all they want. What are they going to do? Slap sanctions?
 
A

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
Tam said:
Huawei already reinvented the wheel. Harmony OS is not Linux. It has its own proprietary micro kernel architecture. In comparison, Linux would already be an old legacy OS based on an ever expanding monolithic kernel. Let's just say that microkernel OS has fundamental advantages especially with regards to OS maintenance, security and latency, which can be of great benefit when it comes to scaling (server, cloud, supercomputing) and IOT.

In fact, Harmony OS has great potential for everything IOT from TV to smart automobiles. It might be the most ground breaking development with Chinese IT sector yet that can lead to OS independence from the west, and one that can go beyond borders.

Even creating your own instruction set should not be too hard. That wheel has also been reinvented for the Chinese supercomputers years ago. Legacy instruction sets like MIPS, SPARC, ARM and X86 are their own performance bottleneck.

Huawei doesn't need US government pressure to develop their own operating system. They already started long ago in order for Harmony OS to be able to reach this stage where it is already real world applicable. Even though it was unveiled in 2019, development for that would have taken place years ago given the advanced state of the OS, since it was already deployed in Huawei and Honor smart TVs.

Where Huawei saw the writing on the wall was when Google was developing its own Fuschia OS. Fuschia would be the replacement of Android and ChromeOS, and despite saying that Fuschia uses the open source Zircon microkernel, I doubt that Fuschia would be as open as Android was, which is in turn isn't as open as Linux (for those who don't understand this, Android uses the Linux kernel.) That means those who depend on open source Android --- Android without GMS --- like Amazon and the Chinese mobile industry --- are going to get screwed when Fuschia comes out. Ironically, the first devices Fuschia was tested on was certain Huawei devices. (People forget that the last Google Nexus prior to the first Pixel, was made by Huawei, but Fuschia was also tested on non Nexus Huawei devices.)

Having said this, Samsung has been trying to do its own OS, first called Bada, then Tizen, without much commercial success except for smart TVs and smartwatches. So how can Huawei succeed when a giant like Samsung has failed. The answer is that Samsung doesn't have a huge captive domestic market like Huawei has. The most brilliant development in the history of Chinese IT --- and the biggest mistake Google has ever made --- was to voluntarily leave the Chinese market because Sergey Brin --- with vocal opposition from Eric Schmidt to the point of having shouting matches --- didn't agree on manually censoring search results to meet Chinese government requirements. Something that Apple and Microsoft had no problem doing. This enabled the development of an entire Chinese software ecosystem that is non Google dependent.
Click to expand...
Hi Tam

good day

as always a very good summary, Im always intrigue why the US is hell bent to destroy and discredit Huawei. Now I know why,Huawei corporate creed is to help China develop an ingenious Hi-tech sector both in hardware and software. Its founder is indeed a patriot, we need a lot of him.
 
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