News on China's scientific and technological development.

Rachmaninov

Junior Member
Registered Member
Hong Kong has its own currency. Ask Greece how important is this .
Hong Kong is more sovereign than Spain, even if the later has its own army

Sorry but nothing you say here will make Hong Kong a country, for the reason that it simply is not.

Going back to the high speed rail, it is a marvellous piece of engineering and, as with many other high profile large scale infrastructure in Hong Kong, the reason why it is "over-budget" is because the cost is underestimated.
 

Quickie

Colonel
101 000 kg and 100 000 kg are input parameter, output is the 293 m/sec delta V

Two mistake:
1. big mistake --you calculated the required mass for 5km/sec delta V. That is not a near earth asteroid with low dV, but phobos/demios or main asteroid belt. My calculation was 293 m/sec required mass.
2. small mistake : the rocket equitation is exponential regarding masses, but with small difference the error small


The ion engine ACCELERATE the reaction mass to the EXHAUST speed.
Means the xenon has zero average speed in the tank of the spacecraft, but 30 km (compared to craft)after leaving the engine, so it needs to be accelerated by the voltage difference between the anode/cathode.

Doesn't matter the type and thrust.
The interesting is the exhaust speed, and the mass accelerated by the engine.
The thrust can be calculated based on the above, and the type of the engine selected.

The ion engine is a small , simple thingy.
Doesn't has big mass, and you can scatter as many as you can on the spacecraft ( only the power restrict the amount)

The available electrical power define the amount of accelerated mass.


Mentioning He3 making it even bigger fraud.

The current market of He3 is about 12 million $.
I can not describe how small the market of He3 is.

The ion engine / spacecraft is a simple thing, require only high school math/ physic.I included my calculations, made only for you : ) Including voltage / current calculation of ion engine .
View attachment 48946 View attachment 48947 View attachment 48948

Lol, it's your big mistake of pulling a random dV number of 293 m/s. The median dV number for NEAs is 7000 m/s. The example I used has dV of 4300 m/s.

The ion engine ACCELERATE the reaction mass to the EXHAUST speed.
Means the xenon has zero average speed in the tank of the spacecraft, but 30 km (compared to craft)after leaving the engine, so it needs to be accelerated by the voltage difference between the anode/cathode.

The way you first explained it, is like a whole tank of 1kg of Xenon is accelerated to 30km.


Doesn't matter the type and thrust.
The interesting is the exhaust speed, and the mass accelerated by the engine.
The thrust can be calculated based on the above, and the type of the engine selected.

The ion engine is a small , simple thingy.
Doesn't has big mass, and you can scatter as many as you can on the spacecraft ( only the power restrict the amount)

The available electrical power define the amount of accelerated mass.

The thrust does matter. The main problem with ion drive is its very small thrust. That's why the Deep Space 1 took so long (9 months) to rendezvous with the 9969 Braille asteroid (one way). It makes no sense to take 18 months to bring back a certain amount of processed product back to earth, mining from the asteroid when you can do the same mining from the moon with the same fuel cost (think about the 20000 kg of Xenon required in the case of asteroid mining) and probably much less equipment cost at a much shorter time frame of weeks.

Mentioning He3 making it even bigger fraud.

The current market of He3 is about 12 million $.
I can not describe how small the market of He3 is.

Says who? From someone who can't see the bright prospect in the longer term?
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Sorry but nothing you say here will make Hong Kong a country, for the reason that it simply is not.

Going back to the high speed rail, it is a marvellous piece of engineering and, as with many other high profile large scale infrastructure in Hong Kong, the reason why it is "over-budget" is because the cost is underestimated.
Ok, call it then a state capable to issue its own money.

The point is, Hong Kong does not represent the investment need of China. Simply because it is way more wealthy than any other part of China.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Lol, it's your big mistake of pulling a random dV number of 293 m/s. The median dV number for NEAs is 7000 m/s. The example I used has dV of 4300 m/s.

Ok, so a few thing about delta V requirements:
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So, 7000 m/sec is NOT Near Earth Asteroid, this is more than the transfer orbit to the main asteroid belt between the Mars / Jupiter.
Jupiter transfer orbit is 6.3 km/sec, so this "average" is enough to the Jupiter Trojans.
So, you made the next errors:
3. I don't know where you get the 7000 m/sec average NEA, but it is bad. Check the wiki.
4. The 4300 m/sec is NOT the delta V required to bring the asteroid back to moon-earth L4/5 points, but to reach the asteroid from the low earth orbit. Means the "cheapest" NEAs require less than 500 m/sec (the Lagrange 4/5 is a bit tricky to calculate, but as I remember the delta V actualy smaller than the earth escape velocity-delta v to reach the asteroid)
The way you first explained it, is like a whole tank of 1kg of Xenon is accelerated to 30km.
in small portions, but finally you accelerate the whole tank to 30km/sec.

The energy ( in MJ) to accelerate is divided by time gives the required power of electrical source.

The thrust does matter. The main problem with ion drive is its very small thrust. That's why the Deep Space 1 took so long (9 months) to rendezvous with the 9969 Braille asteroid (one way). It makes no sense to take 18 months to bring back a certain amount of processed product back to earth, mining from the asteroid when you can do the same mining from the moon with the same fuel cost (think about the 20000 kg of Xenon required in the case of asteroid mining) and probably much less equipment cost at a much shorter time frame of weeks.
The rocket equitation doesn't need the trust, but it can be calculated with the help of it.
5. mistake: it is NOT 20 000 kg of xenon, that required to bring back something from the main asteroid belts to the earth-moon Lagrange 4/5 point.
To bring back 100 tons it require less than 2 tons ( good case one ton) of xenon.

To bring back 1 kg of material from the Moon you need to send 1 kg of fuel to the moon surface.From the surface of the earth is actually takes at least 15 kg of fuel to launch one kg of material from the surface of moon. I think it is obviously doesn't make sense.

Means it makes more sense to just send the stuff from the earth, even basalt than to mine it from Moon.

Again, rocket equitation.

To launch one kg of empty rocket mass from the moon, with 3500 m/sec exhaust speed you need 1 kg of fuel.
There is no N2/H2 on moon( apart from same faint amount on the poles) .
If they want to use the same 15 kWe reactor to make H2/O2 for rocket fuel on the moon poles then it will take 3(!!!!) years to make enough fuel for the same 100 000 kg of material that can taken back from NEA with 1-2 tons of xenon.
Considering that the cryogenic hydrogen is complicated to handle they want same hypergolic / high boil point fuel, but that require even more complicated equipment to make.

So, sorry , but the Chinese moon program is simply a political entertainment, has no economical value.
Says who? From someone who can't see the bright prospect in the longer term?

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2008: 70 000 litre production, 100 $/litre price, market : 7 million $
2011:6000 litre production, 2000 $/liter , market: 12 million $.

There is no real use of He3, apart from neutron detectors, and same marginal medical uses.
If you want to make business I suggest the tritium , that has bigger market.And decay into He3 : D
 
now I read
China aims to explore polar regions of Moon by 2030
Xinhua| 2018-09-25 16:30:57
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China plans to land on and explore the southern and northern polar regions of the Moon by 2030, according to an official of the China National Space Administration (CNSA).

Li Guoping, director of the Department of System Engineering of the CNSA, said at the World Conference on Science Literacy 2018 recently held in Beijing that China is planning four missions for the fourth stage of its lunar exploration program.

China's lunar exploration program, named after the legendary Chang'e, a moon goddess accompanied by a jade rabbit, started in 2003, and the first three stages of the program include orbiting and landing on the Moon, and bringing samples back to Earth.

Li said the fourth stage of the program will include sending the Chang'e-4 lunar probe to the far side of the Moon at the end of 2018, which is expected to become the world's first soft-landing, roving probe on the Moon's far side. A relay satellite, named Queqiao (Magpie Bridge), for Chang'e-4 has entered a Halo orbit around the second Lagrangian (L2) point of the Earth-Moon system, about 65,000 km from the Moon in June.

Three other missions include bringing lunar samples back to Earth for the second time, landing on the South Pole region and the North Pole region, Li said.

The exploration to the South Pole aims to study the age of the lunar soil, and the composition of the solar wind's isotopes of hydrogen, carbon, helium and oxygen; while the exploration to the North Pole aims to find out whether ice exists in the permanent shadow area, according to Li.

After that, China is considering setting up a scientific research station on the Moon and implementing more robot and human lunar exploration missions in the future, Li added.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Ok, call it then a state capable to issue its own money.

The point is, Hong Kong does not represent the investment need of China. Simply because it is way more wealthy than any other part of China.

Actually NOT Shenzhen is richer than Hongkong
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Shenzhen surpasses US$338 billion GDP mark in 2017, beats Hong Kong and Singapore’s growth

Economic expansion dwarfs growth in neighbouring Hong Kong as city stakes more on research and development


PUBLISHED : Monday, 15 January, 2018, 4:20pm
UPDATED : Tuesday, 16 January, 2018, 5:36pm

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17 Sep 2018
The southern Chinese city of Shenzhen has marked an economic milestone, surpassing the 2 trillion yuan GDP mark with 8.8 per cent growth in 2017 to cement its role as an engine of the Pearl River Delta.

The city, which is roughly the same economic size as Singapore and Hong Kong, recorded nominal output of 2.2 trillion yuan (US$338 billion) in 2017 thanks to its booming hi-tech sector, state-run Shenzhen Special Zone Daily reported on Monday.

Over 40 per cent of the output came from “innovative” businesses such as internet, biotech and telecom, the report said.

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Hong Kong’s gross domestic product was US$320 billion in 2016 and was estimated to rise 3.7 per cent last year, while Singapore’s economy was valued at US$297 billion in 2016 and may have grown 2.5 per cent last year.

Starting as a small fishing village in 1980, Shenzhen has grown from a sweatshop into a hi-tech hub home to 12 million people and a group of leading Chinese tech firms, including internet giant Tencent, telco Huawei and drone maker DJI.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Ok, call it then a state capable to issue its own money.
Calling Hong Kong a "state" is even further away than "country" from reality. Depending on usage of the word, country may be applied to a region within a state, such as the Basque country of Spain, or Scotland and England within the UK. Countries in these limited usage means region of certain autonomy. Otherwise, country is equal to state. State (International sense) on the other hand is strictly a legal term that means sovereign entitle that is not subordinate to any other polity. State is the strict and narrow sense of country. Country is the loose equivalent of State.

State may refer to a sub-national entity like a province or constituent of a Sovereign state in case of Mexico, U.S. and India. But generally speaking, out side these countries, state means only Sovereign, nothing else.

According to the basic law, Hongkong is a region, it has never gained the status of "state", not from the UK, not from PRC.

Read:
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and
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and
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England is a
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that is
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of the
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.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Actually NOT Shenzhen is richer than Hongkong
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Shenzhen surpasses US$338 billion GDP mark in 2017, beats Hong Kong and Singapore’s growth

Economic expansion dwarfs growth in neighbouring Hong Kong as city stakes more on research and development
Shanzen has 60% higher population.

Means PPP basis Hong Kong is more advanced than Shanzen.
 

montyp165

Senior Member
Chinese investment in infrastructure even in relatively mature areas has a force-multiplicative effect on economic activities, because it ensures that systems as mundane as water pipes and rail systems not only receive continuous improved functionality but also greater systems capacity too. One of the greatest economic shortfalls the US committed domestically was the chronic underinvestment in infrastructure to the point of bridge collapses, contaminated water supplies and repeated overcrowding and breakdowns in public transits systems like NYC. Claiming that infrastructure investments is detrimental is as logically consistent as Trump tweets.
 
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