News on China's scientific and technological development.

Hendrik_2000 · Sep 23, 2018

Anlsvrthng said:
Hong Kong is a high income country, on par with any other advanced economy.

Anything, that increase the efficiency will be used by them, and can be considered as investment.

However a train to Tibet, or bullet trains between second tier cities can be considered as consumption, not as investment, on par with the Marble Boat of Empress Dowager Cixi .

Not really it promote tourism, job and again bind the country together and in war facilitate fast movement of war material and troop. air ticket is too expensive for most Chinese

Tourism boom in Tibet

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No too mention reduce the cost of transport to Tibet There is no plan of HSR to Tibet. There are 2 lines planned for Tibet one from Sichuan and other one from Kashgar There is HSR to Xinjiang still mostly empty but it will be crowded 10 years from now

Visitors to Tibet grew from 10 million people in 2012 to over 23 million in 2016, growing 21.6 percent year on year. Tourism revenues grew by 27.2 percent each year, exceeding 33 billion yuan in 2016.

"Transport is the major factor checking tourism growth in Tibet. The Nyingchi Mainling Airport is one of the busiest airports in China and it's not easy to book tickets," Zhang said.

The rapid growth of travelers to Tibet is bolstered by convenient transport conditions. The total length of highways in Tibet grew from 65,198 kilometers in 2012 to over 82,000 kilometers today. High-grade highways saw their mileage increase six-fold from 2012 to 2016.

Tourism in Tibet is expected to see surging growth once the railway opens linking Sichuan Province's capital city Chengdu with Lhasa around 2025, Zhang said.

Continue to grow in 2017

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Domestic tourism booms in Tibet but restrictions on foreign tourists remain
The region is not easily accessible for foreigners, who need visitor permits through registered Chinese travel agencies and are almost always part of supervised travel groups.
WORLD Updated: Sep 18, 2018 10:35 IST

manqiangrexue · Sep 23, 2018

Anlsvrthng said:
Hong Kong is a high income country, on par with any other advanced economy.

Anything, that increase the efficiency will be used by them, and can be considered as investment.

However a train to Tibet, or bullet trains between second tier cities can be considered as consumption, not as investment, on par with the Marble Boat of Empress Dowager Cixi .

That's only true for Europe where rich regions stay rich and poor regions stay poor and there is no development. In China, where poor regions are lifted into powerful economies every year, it is definitely an investment to connect cities that will quickly develop into economically important/powerful regions.

Quickie · Sep 24, 2018

Anlsvrthng said:
The calculation is easy, delta V [final] =V[exhaust speed] *ln(launch_mass/empty_mass)
It means that 1000 kg xenon , with a 30km/sec exhaust speed can accelerate 100 000 kg to 298 m/sec.
The power of rector will affect the time to achieve this acceleration.

A 15 kWe reactor needs 8 hours to accelerate 1 kg of xenon to 30 km/sec. (100% efficiency).
It means 1000 kg of xenon require one year at least to accelerate 100 000 kg to 298 km/sec.

This nuclear reactor system is 1100 kg, using more reactor proportionally decrease the travel time, and bring closer the system to a low energy hohmann transfer .
It is more than enough to bring it back certain stones to the lagrange 4/5.

The ion can't be used for hohmann around the earth, but with the L4/5 I think it is possible to end the trajectory there with minimal delta_V requirement at the end phase.

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It is quite safe to say the chap who collection money for gold mining on moon is closer to a fraud than to a real business opportunity.

The calculation is easy, delta V [final] =V[exhaust speed] *ln(launch_mass/empty_mass)
It means that 1000 kg xenon , with a 30km/sec exhaust speed can accelerate 100 000 kg to 298 m/sec.
The power of rector will affect the time to achieve this acceleration.

Where did you pull the figures from? 1000 kg against 100,000 kg? Exactly 1 to 100? Sounds like you just make up the numbers.

Here is what I have, using the numbers from the Deep Space 1 example and the calculated effective exhaust speed of

26000 m/s, the amount of Xenon required is about 21000 kg (assuming payload is 85 percent of unfueled spacecraft.)

With your 30000 m/s Ve number, the amount is about 18000 kg.

Both numbers are about 2000 percent bigger than your make-believe 1000 kg.

A 15 kWe reactor needs 8 hours to accelerate 1 kg of xenon to 30 km/sec. (100% efficiency).
It means 1000 kg of xenon require one year at least to accelerate 100 000 kg to 298 km/sec.

Again you're simply wandering with your answer.

You don't need to accelerate the Xenon to 30 km/sec! 30km/sec is the Effective exhaust speed!

It means 1000 kg of xenon require one year at least to accelerate 100 000 kg to 298 km/sec.

Again you're making this up when the type and thrust of the ion drive engine is NOT known.

This nuclear reactor system is 1100 kg, using more reactor proportionally decrease the travel time, and bring closer the system to a low energy hohmann transfer .
It is more than enough to bring it back certain stones to the lagrange 4/5.

Are you serious? The thrust of the ion thruster engine itself determines the acceleration and velocity of the spacecraft, not the output power of the reactor! A 20kw reactor will just blow up a 10kw ion thruster engine if the entire output power is loaded on it.

It is quite safe to say the chap who collection money for gold mining on moon is closer to a fraud than to a real business opportunity

.

Helium-3 mining, Not gold.

Going by how you believe reactor output power determine the acceleration of the spacecraft and you simply pulling numbers out of nowhere in your reply, No surprise here with your another trolling comment here.

Look, if you continue with your nonsensical rocketry claptrap here, I'm not going to talk to you.

taxiya · Sep 24, 2018

Anlsvrthng said:
Hong Kong is a high income country, on par with any other advanced economy.

Anything, that increase the efficiency will be used by them, and can be considered as investment.

However a train to Tibet, or bullet trains between second tier cities can be considered as consumption, not as investment, on par with the Marble Boat of Empress Dowager Cixi .

Hong Kong is not a "country", it never was, not when it was administrated by the UK, nor after July 1st, 1997.

You apparently over simplified consumption and investment. When the bullet trains reach Tibet, it will facilitate tighter connection and convenient transportation of goods and people, which makes employment of talent from other part of China easier, it also makes the investment of business feasible, that "consumption" is exactly investment. In a typical short-sighted view, investment means only cash to the factory that must generate profit immediately, this is typical western view. In China's practice, long-term investment is even more important than short term. And long-term investment very often does not generate profit immediately. Think about family invest in children's education. Among Chinese that goes all the way to the point when the Children find first job, that can be Bachelor, Master or PhD. however long and however cost it takes.

Let me say this, build school, hospital, road etc. are all investment in Chinese mind. There is a saying "要致富，先修路" which means "want to get rich, build road first".

Besides economy cause, there is a DUTY for every Chinese to assist every other Chinese to reach equal level of living standard because China is a family. One do NOT calculate gaining profit from one's own brother and sisters.

Anlsvrthng · Sep 24, 2018

Quickie said:
Where did you pull the figures from? 1000 kg against 100,000 kg? Exactly 1 to 100? Sounds like you just make up the numbers.

101 000 kg and 100 000 kg are input parameter, output is the 293 m/sec delta V

Quickie said:
Here is what I have, using the numbers from the Deep Space 1 example and the calculated effective exhaust speed of

26000 m/s, the amount of Xenon required is about 21000 kg (assuming payload is 85 percent of unfueled spacecraft.)

With your 30000 m/s Ve number, the amount is about 18000 kg.

Both numbers are about 2000 percent bigger than your make-believe 1000 kg.

Two mistake:
1. big mistake --you calculated the required mass for 5km/sec delta V. That is not a near earth asteroid with low dV, but phobos/demios or main asteroid belt. My calculation was 293 m/sec required mass.
2. small mistake : the rocket equitation is exponential regarding masses, but with small difference the error small

Quickie said:
Again you're simply wandering with your answer.

You don't need to accelerate the Xenon to 30 km/sec! 30km/sec is the Effective exhaust speed!

The ion engine ACCELERATE the reaction mass to the EXHAUST speed.
Means the xenon has zero average speed in the tank of the spacecraft, but 30 km (compared to craft)after leaving the engine, so it needs to be accelerated by the voltage difference between the anode/cathode.

Quickie said:
Again you're making this up when the type and thrust of the ion drive engine is NOT known.

Doesn't matter the type and thrust.
The interesting is the exhaust speed, and the mass accelerated by the engine.
The thrust can be calculated based on the above, and the type of the engine selected.

Quickie said:
Are you serious? The thrust of the ion thruster engine itself determines the acceleration and velocity of the spacecraft, not the output power of the reactor! A 20kw reactor will just blow up a 10kw ion thruster engine if the entire output power is loaded on it.

.

The ion engine is a small , simple thingy.
Doesn't has big mass, and you can scatter as many as you can on the spacecraft ( only the power restrict the amount)

The available electrical power define the amount of accelerated mass.

Quickie said:
Helium-3 mining, Not gold.

Mentioning He3 making it even bigger fraud.

The current market of He3 is about 12 million $.
I can not describe how small the market of He3 is.

Quickie said:
Going by how you believe reactor output power determine the acceleration of the spacecraft and you simply pulling numbers out of nowhere in your reply, No surprise here with your another trolling comment here.

Look, if you continue with your nonsensical rocketry claptrap here, I'm not going to talk to you.

The ion engine / spacecraft is a simple thing, require only high school math/ physic.I included my calculations, made only for you : ) Including voltage / current calculation of ion engine .

Anlsvrthng · Sep 24, 2018

taxiya said:
Hong Kong is not a "country", it never was, not when it was administrated by the UK, nor after July 1st, 1997.

Hong Kong has its own currency. Ask Greece how important is this .
Hong Kong is more sovereign than Spain, even if the later has its own army.

taxiya said:
You apparently over simplified consumption and investment. When the bullet trains reach Tibet, it will facilitate tighter connection and convenient transportation of goods and people, which makes employment of talent from other part of China easier, it also makes the investment of business feasible, that "consumption" is exactly investment. In a typical short-sighted view, investment means only cash to the factory that must generate profit immediately, this is typical western view. In China's practice, long-term investment is even more important than short term. And long-term investment very often does not generate profit immediately. Think about family invest in children's education. Among Chinese that goes all the way to the point when the Children find first job, that can be Bachelor, Master or PhD. however long and however cost it takes.

Let me say this, build school, hospital, road etc. are all investment in Chinese mind. There is a saying "要致富，先修路" which means "want to get rich, build road first".

Besides economy cause, there is a DUTY for every Chinese to assist every other Chinese to reach equal level of living standard because China is a family. One do NOT calculate gaining profit from one's own brother and sisters.

Consumption not simply not generating profit, but it will not pay back the principal as well.

So, if you build bullet train to Tibet then it is equivalent with say using up that money to buy cloth for big part of the population.
Apart from the later done on competitive market, defined by value looking looking customers, the former is purchased on non-competitive terms, NOT improving the efficiency of economy.

manqiangrexue said:
That's only true for Europe where rich regions stay rich and poor regions stay poor and there is no development. In China, where poor regions are lifted into powerful economies every year, it is definitely an investment to connect cities that will quickly develop into economically important/powerful regions.

The "poor " eastern European countries are richer than China in nominal and PPP term.
And they grow in net term as fast as China : ) ( not in percentage, but in dollar increase ) .

Anyway, if I look around in Eastern EU I see the sign of infrastructure waste.
Underutilised highway road network, built for few cars on it, central projects geared to feed non - competitively selected corporations,mega projects wasting resources, and central government targeting abstract numbers instead of the well being of people . (like inflation targeting in Poland , where it devastated a full generation )

The same disease that happens in China.

taxiya · Sep 24, 2018

Anlsvrthng said:
Hong Kong has its own currency. Ask Greece how important is this .
Hong Kong is more sovereign than Spain, even if the later has its own army.

Are you from Mars?

This is the first time I heard that. You can go back to ask the UK government if they agree with you, or ask the Greeks and Spanish. Why bring in these two countries, not any others? What is your definition of Country? You in your house being a country?

FYI, part of Hong Kong's currency is issued by Bank of China. Prior to 1997, four commercial banks issued Hong Kong dollar, two of them were British banks.

You may also be aware that, the Hong Kong dollar today is issued according to the basic law which is a subject to People's Congress in Beijing. If Beijing is pissed off, that basic law could be gone with the wind, so is your currency.

You can try to test your "more sovereign" with the gun of PLA Hong Kong garrison.

Consumption not simply not generating profit, but it will not pay back the principal as well.

So, if you build bullet train to Tibet then it is equivalent with say using up that money to buy cloth for big part of the population.
Apart from the later done on competitive market, defined by value looking looking customers, the former is purchased on non-competitive terms, NOT improving the efficiency of economy.

No need to lecture me. I know what consumption is, that is why I said "train to Tibet" is not one of them. Apparently you choose not to see what I have said about the train's impact on improving the economy in Tibet?

P.S. I have the money, I want my brothers to have easy access to the big Chinese market by GIVING that railroad. Why do you care? Not your money any way.

Anlsvrthng · Sep 24, 2018

taxiya said:
Are you from Mars?
This is the first time I heard that. You can go back to ask the UK government if they agree with you, or ask the Greeks and Spanish. Why bring in these two countries, not any others? What is your definition of Country? You in your house being a country?

FYI, part of Hong Kong's currency is issued by Bank of China. Prior to 1997, four commercial banks issued Hong Kong dollar, two of them were British banks.

You may also be aware that, the Hong Kong dollar today is issued according to the basic law which is a subject to People's Congress in Beijing. If Beijing is pissed off, that basic law could be gone with the wind, so is your currency.

You can try to test your "more sovereign" with the gun of PLA Hong Kong garrison.

No need to lecture me. I know what consumption is, that is why I said "train to Tibet" is not one of them. Apparently you choose not to see what I have said about the train's impact on improving the economy in Tibet?

P.S. I have the money, I want my brothers to have easy access to the big Chinese market by GIVING that railroad. Why do you care? Not your money any way.

1. Ask Greece about sovereignty .
2. Considering China ,Japan ,Germany and so on struggling with overcapacity and lack of demand , and running an extreme level of surplus it is a BIG problem for the world. Should be better if the money spent by the Chinese/German/Japanese consumers for consumption good, healthcare,education and so on rather than pointless projects and export capacity.

This is a form of cargo cult.

They don't develop based on the need of the population, but by the target of a subset of people.

Like the semi industry development.

That is not the target, only a tool to satisfy the need.

The need by humans make the market and should generate new goods, not new goods make consumers.

Equation · Sep 24, 2018

Anlsvrthng said:
1. Ask Greece about sovereignty .
2. Considering China ,Japan ,Germany and so on struggling with overcapacity and lack of demand , and running an extreme level of surplus it is a BIG problem for the world. Should be better if the money spent by the Chinese/German/Japanese consumers for consumption good, healthcare,education and so on rather than pointless projects and export capacity.

This is a form of cargo cult.

They don't develop based on the need of the population, but by the target of a subset of people.

Like the semi industry development.

That is not the target, only a tool to satisfy the need.

The need by humans make the market and should generate new goods, not new goods make consumers.

Greece don't develop like the big boys because they don't much of an economy at all!

manqiangrexue · Sep 24, 2018

Anlsvrthng said:
Hong Kong has its own currency. Ask Greece how important is this .
Hong Kong is more sovereign than Spain, even if the later has its own army.

That's Spain's problem, not China's.

Anlsvrthng said:
Consumption not simply not generating profit, but it will not pay back the principal as well.

Which is why building roads in China is investment, not consumption, like in Europe.

Anlsvrthng said:
So, if you build bullet train to Tibet then it is equivalent with say using up that money to buy cloth for big part of the population.
Apart from the later done on competitive market, defined by value looking looking customers, the former is purchased on non-competitive terms, NOT improving the efficiency of economy.

Use data and numbers (official ones, not ones you made up) to do calculation if you want to prove a point. Don't use your imagination like you always do...

Anlsvrthng said:
The "poor " eastern European countries are richer than China in nominal and PPP term.
And they grow in net term as fast as China : ) ( not in percentage, but in dollar increase ) .

1. Which country are you talking about? Show numbers. I have not heard of any Eastern European country with healthy growth (unless you count Turkey with a single 11% jump last year).
2. Yet no one is afraid of Eastern European (or any European) economy and no one claims Eastern European economic miracle, but that is said about China all the time. So even if you find some Eastern European countries that somehow manage to "beat" the average of China's mega-cities with rural areas, it's a moot point. China is going up and Eastern Europe is going nowhere... if they're lucky.

Anlsvrthng said:
Anyway, if I look around in Eastern EU I see the sign of infrastructure waste.
Underutilised highway road network, built for few cars on it, central projects geared to feed non - competitively selected corporations,mega projects wasting resources, and central government targeting abstract numbers instead of the well being of people . (like inflation targeting in Poland , where it devastated a full generation )

I don't care. You go fix your own country and mind your own business. China doesn't need your advice LOL

Anlsvrthng said:
The same disease that happens in China.

Nope, your disease is yours alone. In Europe, poor places stay poor. In China, poor places turn into metropolis's, just like the "ghost cities" of China that Westerners were talking about years ago. I don't hear about that garbage anymore, cus they are all bustling now. Guess jealous Westerners will just have to imagine some other problem that will be the "downfall of China" until China does away with that "problem" too. History repeats itself for Western China-Watchers LOL

News on China's scientific and technological development.

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General

manqiangrexue

Brigadier

Quickie

Colonel

taxiya

Brigadier

Anlsvrthng

Captain

Anlsvrthng

Captain

taxiya

Brigadier

Anlsvrthng

Captain

Equation

Lieutenant General

manqiangrexue

Brigadier