News on China's scientific and technological development.

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Chinese investment in infrastructure even in relatively mature areas has a force-multiplicative effect on economic activities, because it ensures that systems as mundane as water pipes and rail systems not only receive continuous improved functionality but also greater systems capacity too. One of the greatest economic shortfalls the US committed domestically was the chronic underinvestment in infrastructure to the point of bridge collapses, contaminated water supplies and repeated overcrowding and breakdowns in public transits systems like NYC. Claiming that infrastructure investments is detrimental is as logically consistent as Trump tweets.
Actually , not by the numbers.

When Hungary was on the same development level like China now she hasn't got motorway network, or high speed trains ( even didn't had 120km/hour lanes : D )

So, big part of the growth in the later decades ( equivalent of 5% per year ) did come from the investments that China already did.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Calling Hong Kong a "state" is even further away than "country" from reality. Depending on usage of the word, country may be applied to a region within a state, such as the Basque country of Spain, or Scotland and England within the UK. Countries in these limited usage means region of certain autonomy. Otherwise, country is equal to state. State (International sense) on the other hand is strictly a legal term that means sovereign entitle that is not subordinate to any other polity. State is the strict and narrow sense of country. Country is the loose equivalent of State.
Interesting is Basque country, Spain, Scotland hasn't got the same autonomy like Hong Kong.
So, yes, technically it called a "region", but practically it has bigger autonomy than any of your examples, except England, even if we expand it to Greece , spain, walles and so on.

But frankly it is more of a technical detail.
The main point still valid : the things that benefit HK doesn't necessarily benefit the rest of China.
 

PiSigma

"the engineer"
Interesting is Basque country, Spain, Scotland hasn't got the same autonomy like Hong Kong.
So, yes, technically it called a "region", but practically it has bigger autonomy than any of your examples, except England, even if we expand it to Greece , spain, walles and so on.

But frankly it is more of a technical detail.
The main point still valid : the things that benefit HK doesn't necessarily benefit the rest of China.
You clearly don't know how the Spanish or British systems of government are set up. Basque region have as much antonomy as ningxia. And Scotland and Wales parliaments are very restricted in what powers they have. All of this is OFF TOPIC!
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Interesting is Basque country, Spain, Scotland hasn't got the same autonomy like Hong Kong.
So, yes, technically it called a "region", but practically it has bigger autonomy than any of your examples, except England, even if we expand it to Greece , spain, walles and so on.

But frankly it is more of a technical detail.
The main point still valid : the things that benefit HK doesn't necessarily benefit the rest of China.
Technical detail on sovereignty is no small issue, and can not be lightly treated. Level of autonomy of regions within a sovereign state is irrelevant. I would not have chased this subject if you did not bring it up as it is not related to economy. But I can not just let it pass without notice.:)

As to your main point, benefit is multi directional and multi dimensional, not directly benefitting does not mean not benefitting indirectly in the long term. Bringing Hong Kong closer and tighter to the rest of China may not be immediately benefitting but surely good for the whole China in the long run. A country is not a cooperate ltd. where stake holders can divest at will when they see less profitable for the money. Holding a country together means doing everything, not about money. For most of Chinese history, it was always a "lose" in financial terms when successive dynasties expand into new lands that makes today's PRC. Think about Qin, Han and Tang's south and west expansion, Qing's expansion to the north etc.

By this logic, HSR to Tibet is the same as to Hong Kong, at to Qin's "highway" to Inner Mongolia.

P.S. I picked up this topic when I saw your post regarding HSR to Tibet being consumption, were you talking about Hong Kong?
 

Quickie

Colonel
Ok, so a few thing about delta V requirements:
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So, 7000 m/sec is NOT Near Earth Asteroid, this is more than the transfer orbit to the main asteroid belt between the Mars / Jupiter.
Jupiter transfer orbit is 6.3 km/sec, so this "average" is enough to the Jupiter Trojans.
So, you made the next errors:
3. I don't know where you get the 7000 m/sec average NEA, but it is bad. Check the wiki.
4. The 4300 m/sec is NOT the delta V required to bring the asteroid back to moon-earth L4/5 points, but to reach the asteroid from the low earth orbit. Means the "cheapest" NEAs require less than 500 m/sec (the Lagrange 4/5 is a bit tricky to calculate, but as I remember the delta V actualy smaller than the earth escape velocity-delta v to reach the asteroid)

in small portions, but finally you accelerate the whole tank to 30km/sec.

The energy ( in MJ) to accelerate is divided by time gives the required power of electrical source.


The rocket equitation doesn't need the trust, but it can be calculated with the help of it.
5. mistake: it is NOT 20 000 kg of xenon, that required to bring back something from the main asteroid belts to the earth-moon Lagrange 4/5 point.
To bring back 100 tons it require less than 2 tons ( good case one ton) of xenon.

To bring back 1 kg of material from the Moon you need to send 1 kg of fuel to the moon surface.From the surface of the earth is actually takes at least 15 kg of fuel to launch one kg of material from the surface of moon. I think it is obviously doesn't make sense.

Means it makes more sense to just send the stuff from the earth, even basalt than to mine it from Moon.

Again, rocket equitation.

To launch one kg of empty rocket mass from the moon, with 3500 m/sec exhaust speed you need 1 kg of fuel.
There is no N2/H2 on moon( apart from same faint amount on the poles) .
If they want to use the same 15 kWe reactor to make H2/O2 for rocket fuel on the moon poles then it will take 3(!!!!) years to make enough fuel for the same 100 000 kg of material that can taken back from NEA with 1-2 tons of xenon.
Considering that the cryogenic hydrogen is complicated to handle they want same hypergolic / high boil point fuel, but that require even more complicated equipment to make.

So, sorry , but the Chinese moon program is simply a political entertainment, has no economical value.


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2008: 70 000 litre production, 100 $/litre price, market : 7 million $
2011:6000 litre production, 2000 $/liter , market: 12 million $.

There is no real use of He3, apart from neutron detectors, and same marginal medical uses.
If you want to make business I suggest the tritium , that has bigger market.And decay into He3 : D


So it all boils down to your still clinging on to your make-believe NEA dV of 298 m/s.


If this don't convince you, I don't know what will.

The NEA dV ranges from 3.758 km/s to 26.922 km/s .

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Near-Earth Asteroid Delta-V for Spacecraft Rendezvous
Delta-V is computed following the approach described by Shoemaker and Helin (1978),
Earth-approaching asteroids as targets for exploration, NASA CP-2053, pp. 245-256.

Last update: Fri Jan 26 11:57:21 PST 2018
Source for NEA orbits: Minor Planet Center
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Calculations by Lance A. M. Benner
Jet Propulsion Laboratory, California Institute of Technology
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N = 17607

For comparison, delta-v for transferring from low-Earth orbit to rendezvous
with the Moon and Mars:
Moon: 6.0 km/s
Mars: 6.3 km/s
DELTA-V (ASTEROID)/
PROVISIONAL DELTA-V DELTA-V FOR
RANK PERCENTILE ASTEROID NAME DESIGNATION (KM/S) THE MOON MARS H (mag) a (AU) e i (deg)
==== ========== ============= =========== ======= ======== ==== ======= ====== = =======
1 99.99 2018 AV2 3.758 0.626 0.596 28.8 1.045 0.041 0.1 RADAR
2 99.99 2006 RH120 3.820 0.637 0.606 29.5 1.033 0.024 0.6 RADAR
3 99.98 2007 UN12 3.823 0.637 0.607 28.7 1.054 0.060 0.2
4 99.98 2010 UE51 3.829 0.638 0.608 28.3 1.055 0.060 0.6
5 99.97 2012 TF79 3.867 0.644 0.614 27.4 1.050 0.038 1.0
6 99.97 2009 BD 3.870 0.645 0.614 28.1 1.062 0.052 1.3
7 99.96 2017 FJ3 3.880 0.647 0.616 29.9 1.133 0.118 1.0
8 99.95 2008 HU4 3.910 0.652 0.621 28.3 1.071 0.056 1.4
9 99.95 2010 VQ98 3.924 0.654 0.623 28.2 1.023 0.027 1.5
10 99.94 2014 UV210 3.931 0.655 0.624 26.9 1.159 0.134 0.6 RADAR
11 99.94 2016 TB18 3.933 0.656 0.624 24.8 1.078 0.084 1.5
12 99.93 2014 WX202 3.938 0.656 0.625 29.6 1.036 0.059 0.4 RADAR
13 99.93 2012 EC 3.958 0.660 0.628 23.3 1.152 0.138 0.9
14 99.92 2008 EA9 3.962 0.660 0.629 27.7 1.059 0.080 0.4
15 99.91 2015 KK57 3.966 0.661 0.629 27.5 1.092 0.064 1.0
16 99.91 2015 VC2 3.969 0.662 0.630 27.4 1.053 0.074 0.9
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.
.
.
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8746 50.33 2016 VF18 7.017 1.169 1.114 29.8 2.766 0.679 0.8
8747 50.32 2009 QH6 7.017 1.169 1.114 22.7 1.059 0.187 14.2
8748 50.32 1994 GK 7.017 1.169 1.114 24.2 1.997 0.611 5.7
8749 50.31 2010 SC41 7.017 1.170 1.114 19.8 1.865 0.607 0.2
8750 50.30 2011 SU68 7.017 1.170 1.114 21.4 2.329 0.464 5.5
8751 50.30 2015 AN45 7.017 1.170 1.114 21.8 2.414 0.486 4.1
8760 50.25 2016 PM8 7.019 1.170 1.114 21.0 2.172 0.437 9.1
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Quickie

Colonel
........
.

17598 0.05 (137924) 2000 BD19 23.577 3.930 3.742 17.2 0.876 0.895 25.7 RADAR
17599 0.05 (138925) 2001 AU43 23.725 3.954 3.766 15.9 1.897 0.377 72.1
17600 0.04 (143649) 2003 QQ47 24.638 4.106 3.911 17.4 1.085 0.187 62.1 RADAR
17601 0.03 (10563) Izhdubar 1993 WD 25.277 4.213 4.012 16.8 1.007 0.266 63.5
17602 0.03 2003 UL9 25.428 4.238 4.036 22.4 1.019 0.227 63.3
17603 0.02 2014 PP69 25.724 4.287 4.083 20.0 21.362 0.942 93.6
17604 0.02 2015 XG261 25.956 4.326 4.120 23.1 0.989 0.196 65.7
17605 0.01 2009 FG1 26.047 4.341 4.134 18.8 1.194 0.272 69.8
17606 0.01 2016 JP5 26.790 4.465 4.252 22.7 0.857 0.304 65.5
17607 0.00 2017 MH 26.922 4.487 4.273 21.2 1.049 0.131 65.0


To launch one kg of empty rocket mass from the moon, with 3500 m/sec exhaust speed you need 1 kg of fuel.
There is no N2/H2 on moon( apart from same faint amount on the poles) .
If they want to use the same 15 kWe reactor to make H2/O2 for rocket fuel on the moon poles then it will take 3(!!!!) years to make enough fuel for the same 100 000 kg of material that can taken back from NEA with 1-2 tons of xenon.
Considering that the cryogenic hydrogen is complicated to handle they want same hypergolic / high boil point fuel, but that require even more complicated equipment to make.

So, sorry , but the Chinese moon program is simply a political entertainment, has no economical value.

So, sorry , but the Chinese moon program is simply a political entertainment, has no economical value.

Right, then according to you, the American moon mining program is simply a political entertainment, too.

As to the rest of your comment, yeah, you can keep on repeating your baloney, meanwhile in the real world, scientists, engineers and mining technologists are already studying moon mining.

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Mining Moon Ice: Prospecting Plans Starting to Take Shape
By Leonard David, Space.com's Space Insider Columnist | July 13, 2018 04:04pm ET


GOLDEN, Colorado — A diverse range of scientists, engineers and mining technologists have begun blueprinting what hardware and missions are required to explore and establish a prospecting campaign for water ice at the poles of Earth's moon.

Why have they warmed up to ultra-cold lunar ice? Water ice can be converted to oxygen, liquid water and rocket fuel. Exploiting the stores of this resource — which is thought to be abundant within permanently shadowed polar craters on the moon — could help
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, and help entrepreneurs turn a profit.

For example, United Launch Alliance is maintaining its $3,000-per-kilogram ($1,360 per lb.) offer, first made in 2016, for moon-derived propellant delivered to low Earth orbit. The satellite communications industry could well be the first market for space resources.

....................................




The rocket equitation doesn't need the trust, but it can be calculated with the help of it.

You mean equation?

No, prove it. If you can't, it proves all your talk about rocketry is all nonsense claptrap!
 
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Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Huge like for your last remark. Lets hope ITER works

ITER using Tritium + Deuterium, NOT He-3

He-3 needs bigger and stronger tokamak than ITER.
The only advantage of He-3 is the lack of neutrons during the fusion, but it needs higher temperature and has lower density.


But the neutrons in ITER means it can breed its own tritium, but there is no He-3 source on earth.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
........
.

So it all boils down to your still clinging on to your make-believe NEA dV of 298 m/s.


If this don't convince you, I don't know what will.

The NEA dV ranges from 3.758 km/s to 26.922 km/s .

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Near-Earth Asteroid Delta-V for Spacecraft Rendezvous
Delta-V is computed following the approach described by Shoemaker and Helin (1978),
Earth-approaching asteroids as targets for exploration, NASA CP-2053, pp. 245-256.

Last update: Fri Jan 26 11:57:21 PST 2018
Source for NEA orbits: Minor Planet Center
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Calculations by Lance A. M. Benner
Jet Propulsion Laboratory, California Institute of Technology
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N = 17607

For comparison, delta-v for transferring from low-Earth orbit to rendezvous
with the Moon and Mars:
Moon: 6.0 km/s
Mars: 6.3 km/s
DELTA-V (ASTEROID)/
PROVISIONAL DELTA-V DELTA-V FOR
RANK PERCENTILE ASTEROID NAME DESIGNATION (KM/S) THE MOON MARS H (mag) a (AU) e i (deg)
==== ========== ============= =========== ======= ======== ==== ======= ====== = =======
1 99.99 2018 AV2 3.758 0.626 0.596 28.8 1.045 0.041 0.1 RADAR
2 99.99 2006 RH120 3.820 0.637 0.606 29.5 1.033 0.024 0.6 RADAR
3 99.98 2007 UN12 3.823 0.637 0.607 28.7 1.054 0.060 0.2
17598 0.05 (137924) 2000 BD19 23.577 3.930 3.742 17.2 0.876 0.895 25.7 RADAR
17599 0.05 (138925) 2001 AU43 23.725 3.954 3.766 15.9 1.897 0.377 72.1
17600 0.04 (143649) 2003 QQ47 24.638 4.106 3.911 17.4 1.085 0.187 62.1 RADAR
17601 0.03 (10563) Izhdubar 1993 WD 25.277 4.213 4.012 16.8 1.007 0.266 63.5

Right, then according to you, the American moon mining program is simply a political entertainment, too.

As to the rest of your comment, yeah, you can keep on repeating your baloney, meanwhile in the real world, scientists, engineers and mining technologists are already studying moon mining.

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Mining Moon Ice: Prospecting Plans Starting to Take Shape
...
For example, United Launch Alliance is maintaining its $3,000-per-kilogram ($1,360 per lb.) offer, first made in 2016, for moon-derived propellant delivered to low Earth orbit. The satellite communications industry could well be the first market for space resources.

....................................






You mean equation?

No, prove it. If you can't, it proves all your talk about rocketry is all nonsense claptrap!
I have to highlight this :

For comparison, delta-v for transferring from low-Earth orbit to rendezvous
with the Moon and Mars:
Moon: 6.0 km/s
Mars: 6.3 km/s


1 99.99 2018 AV2 3.758 km/sec

Ok, so same training :
Low Earth Orbit means 300 km orbit above the earth surface.
The orbital speed is 7.8 km/sec.
The above numbers showing how much you have to accelerate to reach the target from here.

So, is you want to reach the 2018 AV2 then you need to accelerate to 7.8 + 3.758=11.558 km/sec.
The escape velocity from earth is 11.186 km/sec.
The difference between these two is required to bring the asteroid to close proximity to earth, or to start an atmospheric break.
It is actually 372 m/sec in the case of 2018 AV2.

The Lagrange 4/5 needs even less delta V, but the calculation of this require lot of calculation.

Just compare, if you want to go to the moon (NOT land, just to orbit it) it require 6 km/sec, 2.242 km/sec more than the 2018 AV2. If you land on it then it require 4.742 (aprox) delta V, and 2.5 from it has to be low impulse chemical rocket.

----
I mentioned previously the ice on moon as fuel, actually not the ice is the important but the hydrogen.

But apart from hydrogen nothing else worth any effort, and actually there is NO data about how much ice is there, and in what form.

I think there is a planed Chinese probe as well to see the poles.

Maybe it is ex tractable.
------

It is very easy to calculate the trust of the ion engine.
You know for what speed it accelerate the mass ( 30 km/sec) , you have the kg/sec mass flow ( 0.00003 kg/sec) from the time needed to exhaust 1kg of xenon.
If you multiple the two you get the trust.....
F=m*a
It is 1 N.
 
now noticed the tweet
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China will carry out large-scale scientific experiments on space application projects after the completion of its space station around 2022, according to China Manned Space Engineering Office Wednesday

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