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Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
But how feasible it is to mine them?

Most of the asteroids are very small and have very high elliptical orbits around the sun and so come around near Earth for short windows.

Near-Earth objects[
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]

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are asteroids whose orbits can bring them within about 0.3
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of the Earth. There are thousands of such objects that are easier to reach than the Moon or Mars. Their one-way delta-v budgets from LEO range upwards from 3.8 km/s (12,000 ft/s), which is less than 2/3 of the delta-v needed to reach the Moon's surface.
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But NEOs with low delta-v budgets have long
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, and the intervals between times of closest approach to the Earth (and thus most efficient missions) can be decades long.
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The delta-v required to return from Near-Earth objects is usually quite small, sometimes as low as 60 m/s (200 ft/s), with
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using Earth's atmosphere.
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However,
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are required for this, which add mass and constrain spacecraft geometry. The orbital phasing can be problematic; once rendezvous has been achieved, low delta-v return windows can be fairly far apart (more than a year, often many years), depending on the body.

In general, bodies that are much further away or closer to the sun than Earth, have more frequent windows for travel, but usually require larger delta-vs.

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Landing and take off from the moon require 3.4km/sec sum, it means that every kg of stone taken from moon require as much kg of fuel launched from earth.

So, it doesn't make sense to mine on the moon.

The moonday is 28 earth day long, so very hard to use solar panels, and impossible to use solar furnaces.

The small ( few to few dozen cubic meters) asteroids can be moved to the Lagrangians by automated ion thugs, and processed there.
In that case every kg of xenon launched from earth worth few hundred kg of mineral.
Later on the mined material can be used as reaction mass.

The NASA makes plans to capture one of the near earth asteroids, and the Russians design nuclear reactor for ion thug.

First mover will have many advantages, including the capability to make space launched weapons , that can destroy anything on earth.
 

Quickie

Colonel
Landing and take off from the moon require 3.4km/sec sum, it means that every kg of stone taken from moon require as much kg of fuel launched from earth.

So, it doesn't make sense to mine on the moon.

The moonday is 28 earth day long, so very hard to use solar panels, and impossible to use solar furnaces.

The small ( few to few dozen cubic meters) asteroids can be moved to the Lagrangians by automated ion thugs, and processed there.
In that case every kg of xenon launched from earth worth few hundred kg of mineral.
Later on the mined material can be used as reaction mass.

The NASA makes plans to capture one of the near earth asteroids, and the Russians design nuclear reactor for ion thug.

First mover will have many advantages, including the capability to make space launched weapons , that can destroy anything on earth.

The moonday is 28 earth day long, so very hard to use solar panels, and impossible to use solar furnaces
.

You conveniently forget about nuclear power and then you are quick to suggest nuclear power in your next statement. lol.

The small ( few to few dozen cubic meters) asteroids can be moved to the Lagrangians by automated ion thugs, and processed there.
In that case every kg of xenon launched from earth worth few hundred kg of mineral.
Later on the mined material can be used as reaction mass.

The NASA makes plans to capture one of the near earth asteroids, and the Russians design nuclear reactor for ion thug.

Yes, talk is easy.

Launching the nuclear reactor and mining spacecraft to the Lagrangian Points and then travelling to and from the NEAs without processing the tons of raw material require much energy. My point is not that you can't mine the near earth asteroid. Rather, with our present technology, mining asteroid is likely far more difficult in terms of technical difficulty and therefore, with all the new technologies that need to be developed and built first, more costly than mining on the moon.
 
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Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
.

You conveniently forget about nuclear power and then you are quick to suggest nuclear power in your next statement. lol.

Yes, talk is easy.

Launching the nuclear reactor and mining spacecraft to the Lagrangian Points and then travelling to and from the NEAs without processing the tons of raw material require much energy. My point is not that you can't mine the near earth asteroid. Rather, with our present technology, mining asteroid is likely far more difficult in terms of technical difficulty and therefore, with all the new technologies that need to be developed and built first, more costly than mining on the moon.
Few interesting fact about nuclear reactors.

The main mass driver is the radiator. On the surface of moon the radiator need to be twice as heavy than in space.

But the biggest problem is not that.

3-20 grams of solar furnace can generate 1 kw heat, 15 kg of reactor can generate 1 kw of electricity .

The reactor usable to move masses ( however solar cells can be used as well) , but not for industrial processes. For that the easiest/possible is solar furnace, but that needs high altitude ( tidal force).
The moon surface is useless for mining or industrial process, and magnitude more difficult.

You can't land on moon with ion engine, but can move from LEO to asteroid with it.

The mining/processing of asteroids is way easier than to do anything on the moon surface.

If anyone serious about permanent space presence then they will talk about asteroids, not moon surface.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Continuing with oil and gas series this time around it is shale gas. This episode tell how China developed the technology themselves. Unlike in the US most of China shale oil located in the mountainous Schezuan province as well the gs is located deeper compare to US 3000 m vs 2000m . Those 2 condition increase the cost of exploration Making for longer break even time span The question is does the reserve hold enough gas to justify the expenses.

Another thing is the cost of exploration and technology At firs they use foreign expert but due to high cost they want to developed the technology and equipment themselves . A lot of hardship encountered But they succeeded Now China is self sufficient in Shale oil technology and equipment

Here is the background
It is important that China is self sufficient in gas production as the demand is exploding
The main contents of this program: The global energy scare is intensifying, petrochemical energy is decreasing, and 2 billion people in the world do not get the daily energy supply. Some institutions predict that the current reserves of conventional energy in the world can only last for half a century. However, the discovery of shale gas is expected to fully alleviate human anxiety about energy depletion. As early as the 1970s, the United States began to promote the development of shale gas technology and industry. In 2009, with the large-scale development of shale gas, US natural gas production surpassed Russia for the first time and became the world's largest natural gas producer.
 

Quickie

Colonel
Few interesting fact about nuclear reactors.

The main mass driver is the radiator. On the surface of moon the radiator need to be twice as heavy than in space.

But the biggest problem is not that.

3-20 grams of solar furnace can generate 1 kw heat, 15 kg of reactor can generate 1 kw of electricity .

The reactor usable to move masses ( however solar cells can be used as well) , but not for industrial processes. For that the easiest/possible is solar furnace, but that needs high altitude ( tidal force).
The moon surface is useless for mining or industrial process, and magnitude more difficult.

You can't land on moon with ion engine, but can move from LEO to asteroid with it.

The mining/processing of asteroids is way easier than to do anything on the moon surface.

If anyone serious about permanent space presence then they will talk about asteroids, not moon surface.


But you still need that same amount of energy (although it's extended over a long period of time for ion thrust engine) and energy needs a source like a nuclear reactor which means additional mass. You can escape from that fact. The ion thruster, which you seem to think is some sort of free energy engine, has the same or slightly less specific impulse than a jet engine. Think about that.

In addition to that, the ion thrust engine needs a propellant in the form of Xenon.

How much of Xenon an Ion thruster will consume to transport 100,000 kg of raw materials from the NEA to the Lagrangian Points?

Hint:

The Deep Space 1 spacecraft, powered by an ion thruster, changed velocity by 4.3 km/s while consuming less than 74 kilograms of xenon.

The Deep Space 1 weighs 486 kg, which is NOT the payload. This against the payload of 100,000 kg of raw materials (The daily output of raw material of a mine on the surface of Earth) + the Mass of the Transporter spacecraft that need to travel between the NEA to the Lagrangian Points. You go figure.



The mining/processing of asteroids is way easier than to do anything on the moon surface.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Apparently the scientists and entrepreneurs don't agree with you.

Billionaire closer to mining the moon for trillions of dollars in riches
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Published 8:13 AM ET Tue, 31 Jan 2017 Updated 9:26 AM ET Tue, 31 Jan 2017

CNBC.com

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, the first private company in history to receive government permission to travel beyond Earth's orbit, announced Tuesday that it raised another $20 million in private equity financing to fund its maiden lunar mission to take place in late 2017. This brings the total amount of private investment to $45 million from investors that include
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's Founders Fund, Collaborative Fund and
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.

What may have added impetus to investor interest in Moon Express is President Trump's picks for the NASA transition team — Charles Miller and Chris Shank — and the leading candidate to become the next NASA administrator,
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. All support commercial space ventures and manned exploration — including lunar missions.

If successful, the new MX-1 lunar lander from Moon Express would not only win the $20 million
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, it would also help jump-start a new era of space exploration. Up until now, only government-funded missions from the United States, China and Russia have landed on the moon.


Last year the U.S. government made a historic ruling to allow the company to engage in peaceful commercial lunar exploration and discovery following consultations with the FAA, White House, State Department and NASA.

The company's challenge now is to meet the XPRIZE requirement: Make a soft landing on the moon, travel 500 meters across its surface, and transmit high-definition video and images back to Earth. All tasks must be done before the end of this year.

According to co-founder and chairman Naveen Jain, "Moon Express now has all the capital it needs to land its small robotic spacecraft on the surface of the moon in November or December of 2017." The company's goal is twofold: 1) mine the moon for valuable resources, such as Helium-3, gold, platinum group metals, rare earth metals and water; and 2) help researchers develop human space colonies for future generations.

"Just before the presidential election, NASA released a call for concepts for payloads to the moon to be delivered by private companies. That shows a rising tide of interest in the moon by our nation's space industry."-Bob Richards, co-founder, president and CEO of Moon Express
The ability to mine Helium-3 could have a tremendous impact on Earth and the environment. Helium-3 is a clean, non-radioactive energy source that could potentially power nuclear fusion reactors. Theoretically, a relatively small amount could produce enough clean fuel to power entire industries, if not the entire planet. It's for this reason that the
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.

Another draw is tapping water on the moon's surface. Hydrogen and oxygen can then be separated to create rocket fuel for deep-space missions to Mars and beyond. Essentially, the moon can serve as a fueling station for spacecraft.

More from iCONIC:
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"This year is a watershed year for Moon Express and America's commercial space industry," said Bob Richards, Moon Express' co-founder, president and CEO. "Just before the presidential election, NASA released a call for concepts for payloads to the moon to be delivered by private companies. That shows a rising tide of interest in the moon by our nation's space industry."

Thanks to a unique public-private partnership with NASA, Moon Express has access to NASA engineering expertise. It has licensed space launch complexes 17 and 18 at Cape Canaveral from the U.S. Air Force. The six-year-old start-up with a team of 30 already has contracts for payloads from the private sector and
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. They include the delivery of the international lunar observatory on the moon,
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to test principles of Einstein's general relativity theory and lunar geology, and human remains and DNA samples for space burial from
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.

In addition, Moon Express hopes to snare a contract for a payload from NASA for its first mission, said Richards.

Moon Express has contracted five electron rockets from New Zealand-based launch provider
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for its missions. In the future, it plans to be rocket agnostic and use a variety of rocket providers.

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has also expressed interest in partnering with Moon Express. ESA has plans to develop lunar colonies in the future.

Now the race is on to see who will win the Google Lunar XPRIZE and what player will land on the moon first. Contenders include
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from Israel,
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from India and international team
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.

At the same time, superpowers are busy preparing their own missions. China has unveiled plans to visit the moon's north and south poles late this year and return to Earth with rock samples. In 2018 it plans to send its Chang'e-4 lander to the dark side of the moon to carry out patrolling surveys. At the same time, Russia's
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is planning a manned space exploration base on the moon.

As Naveen explains, "he and his partners are just a group of entrepreneurs trying to move humanity forward. We want to leave a legacy for future generations."

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Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
But you still need that same amount of energy (although it's extended over a long period of time for ion thrust engine) and energy needs a source like a nuclear reactor which means additional mass. You can escape from that fact. The ion thruster, which you seem to think is some sort of free energy engine, has the same or slightly less specific impulse than a jet engine. Think about that.

In addition to that, the ion thrust engine needs a propellant in the form of Xenon.

How much of Xenon an Ion thruster will consume to transport 100,000 kg of raw materials from the NEA to the Lagrangian Points?

Hint:

The Deep Space 1 spacecraft, powered by an ion thruster, changed velocity by 4.3 km/s while consuming less than 74 kilograms of xenon.

The Deep Space 1 weighs 486 kg, which is NOT the payload. This against the payload of 100,000 kg of raw materials (The daily output of raw material of a mine on the surface of Earth) + the Mass of the Transporter spacecraft that need to travel between the NEA to the Lagrangian Points. You go figure.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Apparently the scientists and entrepreneurs don't agree with you.



I

The calculation is easy, delta V [final] =V[exhaust speed] *ln(launch_mass/empty_mass)
It means that 1000 kg xenon , with a 30km/sec exhaust speed can accelerate 100 000 kg to 298 m/sec.
The power of rector will affect the time to achieve this acceleration.

A 15 kWe reactor needs 8 hours to accelerate 1 kg of xenon to 30 km/sec. (100% efficiency).
It means 1000 kg of xenon require one year at least to accelerate 100 000 kg to 298 km/sec.

This nuclear reactor system is 1100 kg, using more reactor proportionally decrease the travel time, and bring closer the system to a low energy hohmann transfer .
It is more than enough to bring it back certain stones to the lagrange 4/5.

The ion can't be used for hohmann around the earth, but with the L4/5 I think it is possible to end the trajectory there with minimal delta_V requirement at the end phase.

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It is quite safe to say the chap who collection money for gold mining on moon is closer to a fraud than to a real business opportunity.
 
now I read
Hong Kong enters high-speed rail era
Xinhua| 2018-09-23 19:11:34
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The Hong Kong section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link (XRL) opened Sunday.

It now takes 14 to 19 minutes to travel between high-speed train stations of Shenzhen Futian and Hong Kong West Kowloon.

Bullet trains also departed Sunday from Beijing and Shanghai, to Hong Kong. The travel time is about 9 hours from Beijing to Hong Kong. It used to exceed 24 hours.

The length of China's high-speed rail network had totaled 25,000 kilometers by the end of 2017, the longest of its kind in the world.

"The XRL train has slashed my commuting time to one hour from three hours," said Alex Leung, a Hong Kong entrepreneur working in Shenzhen who is considering moving his office closer to Futian high-speed railway station.

Michael Chong is thinking the other way around.

"Quite a few Hong Kong people choose to work in Hong Kong and live in Shenzhen. There is no doubt that the XRL will bring more convenience," he said. "It might be possible for me to rent a spacious flat in Shenzhen again."

Chong, who works for a travel agency in Hong Kong, used to live in Shenzhen but the long commute forced him back to Hong Kong. "The XRL will cut travel time from Hong Kong to many inland tourist attractions, too," he said.

The high-speed trains depart every 10 minutes from stations on the XRL network. Most tickets for the Mid-Autumn Festival and the week-long National Day holiday have sold out since becoming available on Sept. 10.

Chong said that a number of Hong Kong residents had booked his travel agency's travel-inland packages by high-speed train in October.

The Chinese government resumed sovereignty over Hong Kong on July 1, 1997. A grand ceremony was held to mark the 20th anniversary of the return of Hong Kong to the motherland on July 1, 2017.

Last year, 241 million travels passed the Shenzhen port, a daily average of more than 662,000, according to the Shenzhen General Station of Exit and Entry Frontier Inspection.

Most travelers went for business, study, shopping or tourism.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Here is the video the first day is a complete success ticket sold out
It is more than just a train To the chagrin of China hater it bind Hongkong ever closer to China with rail, road and next month Super bridge creating a cluster of high energy economy rivaling Tokyo Bay and San Francisco bay area. It will promote integration to Mainland and most important promote Hongkonger pride in China because it showcase China technological prowess. Cost be damned
 
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Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Hong Kong is a high income country, on par with any other advanced economy.

Anything, that increase the efficiency will be used by them, and can be considered as investment.

However a train to Tibet, or bullet trains between second tier cities can be considered as consumption, not as investment, on par with the Marble Boat of Empress Dowager Cixi .
 
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