News on China's scientific and technological development.

Dear Serb,

Serb said:

This one is old news bro, it says 2005-2015.



This second one is the 2000-2015 period, an even older sample.

In the context of the Chinese development pace, that is already ancient history.

China is still in the net outflow of students against the US, but it is much less than before.

Due to various circumstances, scientists and graduates are increasingly returning.

Anyways, I'm not affiliated with either India or China, but looking at some objective parameters I could confidently say that India has a worse brain-drain situation than China in the US, and a big-time worse brain-drain situation than China has if we look at the whole world.

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Dear Serb, thanks for another great reply with clearly given evidence to make your claims.

I agree, from your facts, at present India is suffering worse brain drain than China. However, one should also take into account the different development level of the two countries.

India cannot absorb the number of scientists into it's economy the way China can at present because it is much more developed.

The sad fact is both China and India suffer brain-drain and the west prospers from it.

donjasjit said:

Dear Serb,

Dear Serb, thanks for another great reply with clearly given evidence to make your claims.

I agree, from your facts, at present India is suffering worse brain drain than China. However, one should also take into account the different development level of the two countries.

India cannot absorb the number of scientists into it's economy the way China can at present because it is much more developed.

The sad fact is both China and India suffer brain-drain and the west prospers from it.

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What your missing is that China is a net importer of scientists now. This is something that China has been fostering for a while. China is now actively brain draining from other countries. Even some from the US.


It's not and will never be absolute. If your waiting for the day 0 Chinese leave for the West, that day will never come. What we want to see is a net gain, which we do.

And yes, it's because of the development level. That's the whole point, China had it, India does not.

donjasjit said:

Before some people start celebrating that brain-drain is only an Indian problem let me give a few facts that will make other nationalities like China pause in their celebrations-

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As you can see from the above China and India have among the highest staying rate in America after studies.

The research article below is even more damning.

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More Chinese students stay in America than Indians. 90% to 87%.

Both China and India suffer from brain drain. Nothing to celebrate here.

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Brain drain means permanent settlement (i.e., H1B->green card). I would not even count OPT (1-2-years) as brain drain, it's an explicitly temporary post-graduation training program. Overwhelming vast majority of Chinese students return to China after OPT expires.

The fact that you cannot distinguish between OPT (1-2 years) vs. H1B/greencard (lifelong) is quite disingenuous and misinterpretation of the data. Majority of foreigners want to get US work experience post-grad, not all want to settle down in US via H1B unlike Indians. This is what happens when you cherry pick the data to fit a particular narrative.

Phead128 said:

Brain drain means permanent settlement (i.e., H1B->green card). I would not even count OPT (1-2-years) as brain drain, it's an explicitly temporary post-graduation training program. Overwhelming vast majority of Chinese students return to China after OPT expires.

The fact that you cannot distinguish between OPT (1-2 years) vs. H1B/greencard (lifelong) is quite disingenuous and misinterpretation of the data. Majority of foreigners want to get US work experience post-grad, not all want to settle down in US via H1B unlike Indians. This is what happens when you cherry pick the data to fit a particular narrative.

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There is no selective data. I have already given clear evidence.


This data is somewhat old, it covers period until 2019.

According to the authors of the study-Initially, we analyzed the stay rates of international STEM PhD graduates using
data from the 2019 SDR. We decided to use the 2017 SDR instead after NSF warned of possible bias in estimates of stay rates based on 2019 data, due to higher rates of nonresponse among PhD graduates who lived outside the United States.* Our analysis of the 2019 data found virtually no change in overall stay-rate trends between the two surveys.

It is very unlikely that student behavior has changed drastically in the 4 years since.

In the data, it is clearly given that 90% of STEM PhD graduates from China in the United States stay long after graduation.

Here are talking about Phd graduates, the best of the best.

Staying long after completing your elite level PhD in a foreign country even though you could get a decent job in your home country qualifies as brain drain in my definition.

donjasjit said:

There is no selective data. I have already given clear evidence.

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This data is somewhat old, it covers period until 2019.

According to the authors of the study-Initially, we analyzed the stay rates of international STEM PhD graduates using
data from the 2019 SDR. We decided to use the 2017 SDR instead after NSF warned of possible bias in estimates of stay rates based on 2019 data, due to higher rates of nonresponse among PhD graduates who lived outside the United States.* Our analysis of the 2019 data found virtually no change in overall stay-rate trends between the two surveys.

It is very unlikely that student behavior has changed drastically in the 4 years since.

In the data, it is clearly given that 90% of STEM PhD graduates from China in the United States stay long after graduation.

Here are talking about Phd graduates, the best of the best.

Staying long after completing your elite level PhD in a foreign country even though you could get a decent job in your home country qualifies as brain drain in my definition.

Click to expand...

i have read all of your massages.. indians will never understand China and Chinese people. its tragic

let me tell you one. everything has changed since 2018-19. Trade/tech war , sanctions and racism against Chinese/Asian people in USA have changed everything in China. i repeat everything has changed since then

i have 2023 data of Peking , Tsinghua and other top Chinese Universities. least number of their top students are planning to go USA for higher studies. this is lowest percentage in 2 decades .. many reasons behind it.

i don't think so i need to repost all charts what @Serb posted .. its now USA, facing brain drain. more and more Chinese scientists returning home. there are plenty of charts and articles ..

what you posted is upto until 2019 .. but from 2019 things have changing really fast

we have official data from Ministry..

this process has accelerated since 2019..

its better for you to focus on your country. you just trying to please themselves. oh we india and China is in same boat but reality is totally different.
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USA brain drain ..

I personally know a lot of Chinese origin STEM talents who would love to stay in the US but there are two things working against them. Number one is the horrendous job market despite whatever bull shit number the White House has been cooking up for the past year or so. Number two is ass hole politicians like DeSantis doing their best to make Chinese nationals unhireable in the US for cheap political brownies points. Screws the jackasses across the political isles and may their careers crash and burn like those of many of my colleagues.

siegecrossbow said:

I personally know a lot of Chinese origin STEM talents who would love to stay in the US but there are two things working against them. Number one is the horrendous job market despite whatever bull shit number the White House has been cooking up for the past year or so. Number two is ass hole politicians like DeSantis doing their best to make Chinese nationals unhireable in the US for cheap political brownies points. Screws the jackasses across the political isles and may their careers crash and burn like those of many of my colleagues.

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no doubt there are many Chinese STEM talent, wants to stay in USA. but situation rapidly changing. its now China, is more attractive for world talent. this is reason why we have seen surge of Chinese origin talent returning home in last few years. China initiative started by Trump administration working like fuel on fire..

donjasjit said:

There is no selective data. I have already given clear evidence.

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This data is somewhat old, it covers period until 2019.

According to the authors of the study-Initially, we analyzed the stay rates of international STEM PhD graduates using
data from the 2019 SDR. We decided to use the 2017 SDR instead after NSF warned of possible bias in estimates of stay rates based on 2019 data, due to higher rates of nonresponse among PhD graduates who lived outside the United States.* Our analysis of the 2019 data found virtually no change in overall stay-rate trends between the two surveys.

It is very unlikely that student behavior has changed drastically in the 4 years since.

In the data, it is clearly given that 90% of STEM PhD graduates from China in the United States stay long after graduation.

Here are talking about Phd graduates, the best of the best.

Staying long after completing your elite level PhD in a foreign country even though you could get a decent job in your home country qualifies as brain drain in my definition.

Click to expand...

It’s entirely possible for initial stay rates after graduation to be quite high and also for increasing amount of talent to be flowing back to the country of origin. Nothing says that just because you stay after a PhD you’re going to be there forever. A lot of people going back now are also people who stayed after their PhD for a decade or more.

donjasjit said:

There is no selective data. I have already given clear evidence.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

This data is somewhat old, it covers period until 2019.

According to the authors of the study-Initially, we analyzed the stay rates of international STEM PhD graduates using
data from the 2019 SDR. We decided to use the 2017 SDR instead after NSF warned of possible bias in estimates of stay rates based on 2019 data, due to higher rates of nonresponse among PhD graduates who lived outside the United States.* Our analysis of the 2019 data found virtually no change in overall stay-rate trends between the two surveys.

It is very unlikely that student behavior has changed drastically in the 4 years since.

In the data, it is clearly given that 90% of STEM PhD graduates from China in the United States stay long after graduation.

Here are talking about Phd graduates, the best of the best.

Staying long after completing your elite level PhD in a foreign country even though you could get a decent job in your home country qualifies as brain drain in my definition.

Click to expand...

You don't understand the US immigration system.

All foreign students on F-1 visas are allowed 1-3 years of Optional Practical Training (OPT) after graduation which allows for employment with a local US company.

After OPT is over, they must get sponsorship for H1B which allows 3-6 years, which can be converted to a Green card (lifetime).

Summary:

OPT: 1-3 years
H1b: 3-6 years/Green card: lifetime

Your Georgetown data does not breakdown by OPT, H1b, Greencard.

The vast majority of Chinese students return to China after OPT expires, they do not pursue a H1b or green card. That is not brain drain like H1b pathway to permanent settlement.

Your data does not break it down, so please understand the US immigration system and the data you are sharing before making further cherry picked assumptions and misinformed conclusions.

siegecrossbow said:

I personally know a lot of Chinese origin STEM talents who would love to stay in the US but there are two things working against them. Number one is the horrendous job market despite whatever bull shit number the White House has been cooking up for the past year or so. Number two is ass hole politicians like DeSantis doing their best to make Chinese nationals unhireable in the US for cheap political brownies points. Screws the jackasses across the political isles and may their careers crash and burn like those of many of my colleagues.

Click to expand...

No. Godspeed to DeSantis and his ilk. I wish for a thousand DeSantises.