News on China's scientific and technological development.

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
China's current nominal per capita GDP is about 20k, nowhere near the rich nations, but some Chinese internet warriors are already full of it.

20k? Even adjusting for ppp is it that high? Seems like this figure makes some accounting for devalued currency vis a vis USD. Nominal is now nearly $9k.

I guess nominal for china is heavily skewed to lower because about half the population is not really working - either under 20 or over 60. And thus share is far larger than most nations except Japan and nations in that special category where birth rates have just been ridiculously low for several generations.

If one is to compare only working age segment and then adjusting for ppp against USD and devalued rmb against USD, then the per cap number is probably even over half the US rather than less than a third of it.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
20k? Even adjusting for ppp is it that high? Seems like this figure makes some accounting for devalued currency vis a vis USD. Nominal is now nearly $9k.

I guess nominal for china is heavily skewed to lower because about half the population is not really working - either under 20 or over 60. And thus share is far larger than most nations except Japan and nations in that special category where birth rates have just been ridiculously low for several generations.

If one is to compare only working age segment and then adjusting for ppp against USD and devalued rmb against USD, then the per cap number is probably even over half the US rather than less than a third of it.
errrr .... actually $14.1K nominal and $21.4K PPP
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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
errrr .... actually $14.1K nominal and $21.4K PPP
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View attachment 87520

Wow okay my info was dated.

If we count only working age group between countries, China is not far behind developed economies at all. It's actually within that group. China's retirement age is around 60 isn't it and relatives in china are actually pressured to retire after 60. At least in the past. They should consider raising it to at least 65 anyway. Many continue working well past 60 like pretty much every other developed economy.

But comparing china with the US, China's elderly population (over 50) is larger than the entire population of the US.
 

broadsword

Brigadier
Wow okay my info was dated.

If we count only working age group between countries, China is not far behind developed economies at all. It's actually within that group. China's retirement age is around 60 isn't it and relatives in china are actually pressured to retire after 60. At least in the past. They should consider raising it to at least 65 anyway. Many continue working well past 60 like pretty much every other developed economy.

But comparing china with the US, China's elderly population (over 50) is larger than the entire population of the US.

Any idea how well paid are Chinese scientists compared with those in the US?
 

Topazchen

Junior Member
Registered Member
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"China today already has most of the raw ingredients for technological success, and the haphazard cutting of bilateral ties would likely be counterproductive. Instead, the United States should take targeted action to maintain Chinese dependence on foreign technology while continuing to attract and engage with Chinese innovators. For maintaining that dependence, the best point of leverage is semiconductors, specifically the highly specialized manufacturing equipment that is produced only by a handful of U.S. allies"

That should have been the plan but hubris got in the way and the ship has sailed.Even if they removed all restrictions against Huawei (and others on the entity list) and got access to TSMC's latest 3nm nodes, the drive to have an end to end semiconductor supply chain will not waver.
 

Coalescence

Senior Member
Registered Member
That should have been the plan but hubris got in the way and the ship has sailed.Even if they removed all restrictions against Huawei (and others on the entity list) and got access to TSMC's latest 3nm nodes, the drive to have an end to end semiconductor supply chain will not waver.
That's the thing these chicken-hawks controlling the foreign policy in US don't seem to bloody understand. There's an easier, cost-effective, and bloodless route to winning this stupid "cold war" they initiated, which is to make your own country irreplaceable to China, and just continue trying to influence China covertly. They threw all of that away over HK and Taiwan, if anyone in this forum were to be in charge of US, they would already have secured their hegemony. The people in charge are absolutely incompetent and delusional.
 

gadgetcool5

Senior Member
Registered Member
"China today already has most of the raw ingredients for technological success, and the haphazard cutting of bilateral ties would likely be counterproductive. Instead, the United States should take targeted action to maintain Chinese dependence on foreign technology while continuing to attract and engage with Chinese innovators. For maintaining that dependence, the best point of leverage is semiconductors, specifically the highly specialized manufacturing equipment that is produced only by a handful of U.S. allies"

That should have been the plan but hubris got in the way and the ship has sailed.Even if they removed all restrictions against Huawei (and others on the entity list) and got access to TSMC's latest 3nm nodes, the drive to have an end to end semiconductor supply chain will not waver.
Ehhh, what drive? China reached the 90nm in 2016 before the sanctions started, and no progress has been made since then.

SMIC still buys from ASML while even Huawei is still dependent on US licenses.

Meanwhile companies like Microsoft and Google (with Chrome) still run rampant in China.

China lost global market share in semiconductors in 2021 and announced far less Capex than Taiwanese or US companies.

China is more dependent than ever and becoming even more dependent every day. As long as the US follows the strategy defined by the author, this will not change. Chinas only hope is that Trump returns to power in 2025 and issues an arbitrary and sudden sweeping ban all semiconductors exports to China that is strictly enforced. If that happens China will progress rapidly.
 

Michaelsinodef

Senior Member
Registered Member
Ehhh, what drive? China reached the 90nm in 2016 before the sanctions started, and no progress has been made since then.

SMIC still buys from ASML while even Huawei is still dependent on US licenses.

Meanwhile companies like Microsoft and Google (with Chrome) still run rampant in China.

China lost global market share in semiconductors in 2021 and announced far less Capex than Taiwanese or US companies.

China is more dependent than ever and becoming even more dependent every day. As long as the US follows the strategy defined by the author, this will not change. Chinas only hope is that Trump returns to power in 2025 and issues an arbitrary and sudden sweeping ban all semiconductors exports to China that is strictly enforced. If that happens China will progress rapidly.
Lol you need to take a good look at the semiconductor thread.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Ehhh, what drive? China reached the 90nm in 2016 before the sanctions started, and no progress has been made since then.

SMIC still buys from ASML while even Huawei is still dependent on US licenses.

Meanwhile companies like Microsoft and Google (with Chrome) still run rampant in China.

China lost global market share in semiconductors in 2021 and announced far less Capex than Taiwanese or US companies.

China is more dependent than ever and becoming even more dependent every day. As long as the US follows the strategy defined by the author, this will not change. Chinas only hope is that Trump returns to power in 2025 and issues an arbitrary and sudden sweeping ban all semiconductors exports to China that is strictly enforced. If that happens China will progress rapidly.
TSMC capex is for volume, not R&D into semiconductor equipment.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
"China today already has most of the raw ingredients for technological success, and the haphazard cutting of bilateral ties would likely be counterproductive. Instead, the United States should take targeted action to maintain Chinese dependence on foreign technology while continuing to attract and engage with Chinese innovators. For maintaining that dependence, the best point of leverage is semiconductors, specifically the highly specialized manufacturing equipment that is produced only by a handful of U.S. allies"

That should have been the plan but hubris got in the way and the ship has sailed.Even if they removed all restrictions against Huawei (and others on the entity list) and got access to TSMC's latest 3nm nodes, the drive to have an end to end semiconductor supply chain will not waver.
Typically an upstream B2B market is always smaller than the corresponding downstream B2C market. That is because businesses need to make a profit.

For example the semiconductor equipment market size is necessarily smaller than the semiconductor fab market size. If it were larger, then the profit of semiconductor fabs would be 0.

The small market size is an additional barrier to entry. All the current big players are either spinoffs from giant conglomerates like how ASML actually came from a joint venture of Phillips, or were first movers like Applied Materials. They did their R&D subsidized by either government or other corporate branches, then when they were ready, went independent.

A newcomer has to deal with the incumbents in a smaller market that already has locked suppliers and low profit.

But if you choke the supply, as long as the capability of the restricted market is not exactly 0 to respond, then the low profit and incumbent choking out newcomers effects are gone! The literal 2 biggest barriers disappear. Is it any wonder that AMEC and Naura are skyrocketing?
 
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