News on China's scientific and technological development.

To close the immigration argument since it's getting off-topic and unwieldy
- Immigration is in general good for economic & technological development, esp. high-tech immigration and it doesn't hurt local employment conditions and thus should be encouraged
- Brain drain, in general, is bad for the country being drained because of talent outflow but there are edge cases.
- For the brain drain that really matters, graduate-level education, the stay rates are so high that the amount of productivity the few returnees would have to possess is so high that there is no way that it benefits the sending country more.
- Technological diffusion & information diffusion is good for economic development, esp. for poorer countries. Diasporas are not the only or even most common or best way for said diffusion to happen.
- All this is a general case, there will of course be edge cases
- Security risks are there but can be mitigated with a few policies applied equally regardless of national origin.

SleepyStudent said:

To close the immigration argument since it's getting off-topic and unwieldy
- Immigration is in general good for economic & technological development, esp. high-tech immigration and it doesn't hurt local employment conditions and thus should be encouraged
- Brain drain, in general, is bad for the country being drained because of talent outflow but there are edge cases.
- For the brain drain that really matters, graduate-level education, the stay rates are so high that the amount of productivity the few returnees would have to possess is so high that there is no way that it benefits the sending country more.
- Technological diffusion & information diffusion is good for economic development, esp. for poorer countries. Diasporas are not the only or even most common or best way for said diffusion to happen.
- All this is a general case, there will of course be edge cases
- Security risks are there but can be mitigated with a few policies applied equally regardless of national origin.

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Immigration is only good if the immigrants have superior cognitive and behavioral predispositions compared to the average, and even then only if they share a similar phenotype and culture to the native population.

I don't care how many smart Indians there are for example (not that there are many) I would never want them to make up 20% of the Chinese population or the Japanese population or the Korean population. And the vast majority in each country (>99%) would agree with me.

Probably similar feelings in the UK or US or Canada but over there they have a significant minority for it at least (and who insure that anyone who disagrees with this is accused of things that are considered over there to be worse than murder).

The US apparently doesn't value diversity since they're discriminating against immigrant Chinese science and engineering students. So if the US doesn't need foreigners in their science and engineering ranks, why does China? The US alarmed and wanting a cold war on technology says China is doing fine. At first the US probably actually thought that but now they realized they were wrong. So what is an American declaration worth when they acknowledged by action they got it wrong?

AssassinsMace said:

The US apparently doesn't value diversity since they're discriminating against immigrant Chinese science and engineering students. So if the US doesn't need foreigners in their science and engineering ranks, why does China? The US alarmed and wanting a cold war on technology says China is doing fine. At first the US probably actually thought that but now they realized they were wrong. So what is an American declaration worth when they acknowledged by action they got it wrong?

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Well, you can look to revealed US actions where there is still substantial migrant flow from China to the United States, including H1B and F-1 issuance. Not to mention that the United States is receiving significant migration from not China including Mexico, India, and the Philippines. So your original premise is wrong. The United States is the incumbent power and thus that should be evidence that substantial US policy works. Chinese convergence and US jealousy don't change that

SleepyStudent said:

Well, you can look to revealed US actions where there is still substantial migrant flow from China to the United States, including H1B and F-1 issuance. Not to mention that the United States is receiving significant migration from not China including Mexico, India, and the Philippines. So your original premise is wrong. The United States is the incumbent power and thus that should be evidence that substantial US policy works. Chinese convergence and US jealousy don't change that

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The US fears China's technological might despite not having immigrant scientist and engineers. That's all you need to know. Everything you point out is irrelevant.

SleepyStudent said:

Well, you can look to revealed US actions where there is still substantial migrant flow from China to the United States, including H1B and F-1 issuance. Not to mention that the United States is receiving significant migration from not China including Mexico, India, and the Philippines. So your original premise is wrong. The United States is the incumbent power and thus that should be evidence that substantial US policy works. Chinese convergence and US jealousy don't change that

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75% of H-1Bs are Indian; only 12% are Chinese.


27% of F-1 visas are Chinese, but Indians make up 12%.


Note that F-1 visas are not immigrant visas or work visas.

sinophilia said:

Immigration is only good if the immigrants have superior cognitive and behavioral predispositions compared to the average, and even then only if they share a similar phenotype and culture to the native population.

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Disagree. California & Texas both have more dynamic economies out of the 50 states and unless you think that Asian & Hispanic populations are superior in cognitive and behavioral predispositions and share a similar phenotype and culture to white people, then this isn't true.

sinophilia said:

I don't care how many smart Indians there are for example (not that there are many) I would never want them to make up 20% of the Chinese population or the Japanese population or the Korean population. And the vast majority in each country (>99%) would agree with me.

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Good thing I was advocating keeping the foreign-born population in the single digits.
Indian-Americans are 75% of US H1B holders and 20% of US Asian Americans so conservatively, we can assume that 30% of Asians in Silicon Valley are Indians. From here, we can thus interpolate the % Asian in each Silicon Valley County. Indian migration is valuable to the United States for technological development and that Indians in the 10% range is socially acceptable. Couldn't find the national origin breakdowns by Asian country and county on the Census website.

Santa Clara County: 39% Asian, 11.7% Indian
San Mateo County: 30.6% Asian, 9.2% Indian
San Francisco County: 36% Asian, 10.8% Indian
Alameda County: 32.3% Asian, 9.7% Indian
Contra Costa County: 18.3%, 5.5% Indian

SleepyStudent said:

Probably similar feelings in the UK or US or Canada but over there they have a significant minority for it at least (and who insure that anyone who disagrees with this is accused of things that are considered over there to be worse than murder).

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Trump had a Republican trifecta between 2016-2018 and he still couldn't repeal the 1965 INA or substantially modify it. It's also not true.

AssassinsMace said:

The US fears China's technological might despite not having immigrant scientist and engineers. That's all you need to know. Everything you point out is irrelevant.

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That China does well in other policy areas doesn't mean it shouldn't and can't improve in policy areas where it is weaker. You've committed an ecological fallacy. It's like saying that because the US has superior jet engines to China, the US shouldn't fix it's homelessness problem.

FairAndUnbiased said:

75% of H-1Bs are Indian; only 12% are Chinese.

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27% of F-1 visas are Chinese, but Indians make up 12%.

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Yeah, I know. India's share of H-1Bs has always historically outnumbered China's by many magnitudes. And China has more undergraduate students and a BA/BS is not enough for a H1B.

FairAndUnbiased said:

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Note that F-1 visas are not immigrant visas or work visas.

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Yes, I know the F-1 is a student visa. The F-1 is often a gateway visa that is used to apply for more visas since H1Bs and OPT can be applied for in the United States, F-1s cannot. I'm a lawyer in Houston, I know this.

I remember reading something over 20 years ago that said 45% of US R&D were Chinese. When the Wen Ho Lee scandal happened, the US congress passed a law that barred anyone Chinese from working at US National labs. And nearly immediately it was revoked because someone told the dummies in the US congress that those Chinese were important to the US's research and development. Why would they revoke it if Mexicans and Indians and Filipinos could replace them?