New Type98/99 MBT thread

Sunbud

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yeah you're right what about the export cost of this MBT ?
The type 99 is a domestic only tank. There are no plans for exporting the Type 99.

the closest thing you’re going to find to a high end Chinese export MBT and light tank is the VT4 and VT5 respectively, you can give those a google. They inherit some technology from the type 99 and type 15 light tanks respectively but the domestic tanks still reserve the very best technology.
 

Follower

New Member
Registered Member
Is chona
The type 99 is a domestic only tank. There are no plans for exporting the Type 99.

the closest thing you’re going to find to a high end Chinese export MBT and light tank is the VT4 and VT5 respectively, you can give those a google. They inherit some technology from the type 99 and type 15 light tanks respectively but the domestic tanks still reserve the very best technology.
Is china ready to transfer technology of ammunition?
 

Sunbud

Junior Member
Registered Member
Is chona

Is china ready to transfer technology of ammunition?
China's tank ammunition is made by private companies (even if there some some state ownership). So innovations in weapons and ammunition that can be marketed globally will obviously make it into these companies' global product offerings. However, there are of course technology and innovations these companies have that will be limited to domestics use.

In that regard, companies like Norinco are likely to incorporate some more novel ammunition technologies into export ammunition that will make their products more competitive and appealing to potential customers, albeit probably not technologies at the bleeding edge of Chinese research. So you certainly can buy some of China's tank ammunition innovations, but not the most advanced stuff.

In terms of actual technology transfer, I have seen certain ventures in the past where technology has been licensed to customers who wish to manufacture them domestically. However I am unaware of any such example percluding to tank munitions. So I would say these private companies MAY be open to licensing their technology, but I have not seen any evidence of this when it comes to tank munitions.

Beyond that, manufacture of advanced tank munitions is not a trivial task. Whether it is complex electronics, sensors or the difficulty in obtaining high quality materials and machining tungsten and depleted uranium AND in mass quantities, may exclude many customers from manufacturing advanced munitions domestically even if given the technology transfer. It may be easier to just buy the stuff off the shelf if you anticipate continued good relations with China.
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
Today I heard from a Turkish analyst that the Chinese tank engines were extremely unreliable. He claimed their average lifespan was less than 1000 hours. The said analyst is a knowledgeable and respected person so I don't think he is lying. But I think he is misinformed as I couldn't find evidence supporting this. Do any of you have knowledge?

I'll try a different angle because I think you are painting yourself into a corner with your thinking:

Here's a comparison of tank engines relevant to my home region in eastern Europe - W92, 6TD and MB873 are diesel engines, AGT-1500 and GDT-1250 are gas turbines:

3fprKv9.png

The term "lifespan" in the context of tank engines should be understood as "service time before rebuild". All tank engines are designed with a specific time at specific thermal loads before chemical and physical wear on components greatly increases failure rate. That lifespan is a calculated design parameter.

Depending on your strategy you design cheap short-lived engines or expensive long-lived engines. In the context of warfare neither is a "bad" or "good" choice as long as for every engine with 2x the lifespan at 2x price you have two engines with 1x lifespan at 1x price.

There is another design parameter of "mean time between failure" which is more important for operational and tactical considerations. This parameter often limits the practicality of building stronger engines using the same technology if the increase in power comes at the cost of their reliability because while it is not a problem to change engines during rotation of tanks out of battle it is a critical problem if the "better" engine has a higher mean failure rate causing it to fail while in combat.

This causes tank engine development to have stepped evolution. More powerful engines are not introduced unless their mean time between failure remains within acceptable bounds and because failure rate is correlated highly with energy generated those increases of power usually are connected with new designs that improve reliability as well as power output.

However while new designs can have better parameters they require re-tooling and re-training of technical crews and they require stocks of spares for continued operation. If you swap engines in an active unit you need to swap engines in reserve units and reserve materiel stocks and have to re-train active duty soldiers and reserves.

Modernizing tanks is always about modernizing fleets of tanks and their operators because there is so much interchangeability between vehicles and people that anything less disrupts the entire ecosystem. German tanks in WW2 are the best case study of what not to do. China seems to be going the Soviet way which is undeniably crude but proven to work.

Soviet designs were deliberately designed with lower lifespan to reduce cost because Soviet planners continued their approach from WW2 of designing the engine around the lifespan of a tank. Soviet strategy called for mass production of tanks and assumed mass losses (all causes) so long-lasting diesel engines were not necessary. Because in Soviet Union resources for production and fuel were plentiful there was no reason to economize their efficiency nor the efficiency of production. There was also no reason to improve efficiency of engines because Soviet union deliberately chose to build more of smaller and lighter tanks which automatically meant lower energy requirement. This is why Soviet designs stayed at a lower technological level than their western counterparts.

At the time China benefited from both the mass production/deployment strategy as well as from lower technological requirement as it was only beginning to industrialize. When USSR collapsed China suddenly lost its main land threat and with that the pressure on modernization of land force shifted. Even now modernization of tanks is not the biggest priority because tanks are not the kind of weapon that most people imagine them to be.

Tanks are breakthrough weapons, and in particular they are the weapon used after the breakthrough occurs and your forces can exercise maneuver in the the enemy's rear. That is when tanks shine on the battlefield. Other than that they are not very useful on their own and are vulnerable to logistical disruption. An immobile tank is a neutralized tank and it is much easier to immobilize a modern tank than to destroy it.

Which is why it is not a bad decision to forgo intensive development of better tank engines if you can keep the tanks running with worse engines. Communications, targeting and ammunition are of much greater importance. In terms of mobility transmission and suspension provide leaps in capability. Transmission is responsible for acceleration which is all about moving in and out of position. Suspension provides stability for targeting and protects the crew from being rag-dolled to death. Better lifespans for engines mean primarily one thing - the tank can get bigger than 55t. Because that's the parameter which correlates with why MB873 is such a good engine. The lifespan is not the goal but a by-product of the engine parameters which produce high energy output, high peak and mean power and tolerable thermal loads. Those are much more important when the tank is as heavy as Leopard 2 and has mobility required of Leopard 2. That mobility requirement was caused by the staggering numerical and technological superiority of Soviet armor. Germany had no other option. They had to equalize with a ridiculous dash in combat capabilities and absurdly high reliability.

China doesn't.

This is also why when recently Russians modernized their T-72B fleet they focused on new radios, thermal cameras and new ammunition. Tanks are not jet fighters. They don't fight duels one-on-one like in the movies. They work in packs and either pin enemy forces in position like in chess/go so that artillery can wipe them out or raid the rear where nobody has good anti-tank weapons and so they have to disperse or flee disorganizing the entire logistical network.

Hope this helps.

As a parting note - always consider the context before considering the contents of the message.

As Sun Tzu once said: on Twitter the correct answer to "Chinese engines don't last 1000 hrs" is "Still longer than Turkish Lira".
 

Follower

New Member
Registered Member
I was wrong I meant manufacturing ammo under license not the transfer of technology of course the innovations are the right if the owner and can't give that advantage to someone else, thanks for your detailed answer
China's tank ammunition is made by private companies (even if there some some state ownership). So innovations in weapons and ammunition that can be marketed globally will obviously make it into these companies' global product offerings. However, there are of course technology and innovations these companies have that will be limited to domestics use.

In that regard, companies like Norinco are likely to incorporate some more novel ammunition technologies into export ammunition that will make their products more competitive and appealing to potential customers, albeit probably not technologies at the bleeding edge of Chinese research. So you certainly can buy some of China's tank ammunition innovations, but not the most advanced stuff.

In terms of actual technology transfer, I have seen certain ventures in the past where technology has been licensed to customers who wish to manufacture them domestically. However I am unaware of any such example percluding to tank munitions. So I would say these private companies MAY be open to licensing their technology, but I have not seen any evidence of this when it comes to tank munitions.

Beyond that, manufacture of advanced tank munitions is not a trivial task. Whether it is complex electronics, sensors or the difficulty in obtaining high quality materials and machining tungsten and depleted uranium AND in mass quantities, may exclude many customers from manufacturing advanced munitions domestically even if given the technology transfer. It may be easier to just buy the stuff off the shelf if you anticipate continued good relations with China.
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
It was true in the early/mid 2000s but since then the problems have been alleviated. Compare service record between MBT-2000 and VT-4.

If I recall correctly, Pakistani MBT-2000 used a Ukrainian power train precisely because of those reliability issues mentioned. Something like not dealing with sandy areas well, and also too much power reduction from high altitude operation.

I don’t have the exact sources for this, something like Chinese magazine scans posted here every so often.

So he’s not necessarily wrong, but really outdated. Obviously Type-15 (although a lighter tank) is operating reliably at high altitude.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Ukrainian engines and really just entire powertrain, operated by Pakistan and India in the past (and some currently) have been known to be troublesome due to allegedly inappropriate lubricants being used and the operating conditions (desert heat and sand).

I very much doubt Chinese military design specs require the same level of precision and performance (incl. lifecycle operation) compared to NATO, Japanese, Korean, and probably even Turkish ones.

For every Turkish MBT, China deploys 100. The requirements on engine lifecycle are naturally very different. I don't doubt the Turkish expert probably does know some valid and accurate insider info on high performance Chinese MBT engines of >1100hp.

The issue here is that Chinese tank transmission have been a past issue probably due to the quality the suppliers ended up providing for 1990s to 2010s era as part of 2nd to 3rd gen MBTs that started packing on the weight.

Engines were a lesser problem in the past because they simply weren't designed (read engineered and specced) to be long lasting. The reason for that is PLA tank doctrine differing so much from NATO/ Japanese and now Turkish ones. I'm sure Turks spec their requirements far higher as they should since they will have a more western style tank doctrine and have few tanks to use and potentially lose.

Chinese tank doctrine has always been and still kind of is, very Soviet like. Destroy as many as you can (still not that much lol) and we're making them and putting them into service faster than you are taking them out. They also want and need large numbers to cover great distances and great areas of land. A hopeless, half damaged, barely running, but functioning tank still has much more value than a tank that isn't there. That's the Soviet doctrine in a nutshell.

Therefore the PLA and Chinese engineers supplying those tanks (in various suppliers) are given specs that demand a certain price for a certain output rate and they build and engineer the best spec according to those priorities. The engines have improved overall over time but the tanks have also gotten much heavier too. The beast engines are detuned though for most tanks and in peacetime.

The VT-4s sold to Pak and Thailand mostly have detuned engines for peacetime and because they aren't going to be always carrying the full load of ammo, APS, and heaviest ERA in full cover and whatnot during training.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Turkey has lost quite a few NATO built tanks in recent conflicts. They want/need the best everything. It makes sense for them to consider the Chinese specs for engine life to be far lower than ideal.

For one thing, a Type 96A is around $1M for the PLA and the 99A roughly $2M. A Turkish own built Altay is hovering around $8M iirc. Well the Korea K-2 is around $8M for Korea! Export unit would be close to $20M full package deals lol just like those export modern Leopard 2s around the world.

They are different products built to different specs and for different doctrines and conflicts. There should be no doubt Chinese tank engines aren't going to be as well built and assembled because of cost and production rate differences. You win some here and you lose some there. Turkey isn't a wealthy country and increasingly getting poorer actually due to questionable economic policies of Erdogan. Are they really rich enough to be speccing out NATO level tanks? Then again they are at war and the types of conflicts they have been and are involved in do actually require NATO tank doctrines and levels of quality/performance.
 

Jingle Bells

Junior Member
Registered Member
If I recall correctly, Pakistani MBT-2000 used a Ukrainian power train precisely because of those reliability issues mentioned. Something like not dealing with sandy areas well, and also too much power reduction from high altitude operation.

I don’t have the exact sources for this, something like Chinese magazine scans posted here every so often.

So he’s not necessarily wrong, but really outdated. Obviously Type-15 (although a lighter tank) is operating reliably at high altitude.
I don't believe MBT-2000 even had a Chinese-made engine option to begin with. Are you sure you didn't mis-remember what you actually read? MBT-2000 is a further evolution of Type-90IIM.
VT4's prototype was named MBT-3000. And it was an entirely new generation of powertrain comparing to the Ukrainian KMDB 6TD-2. VT4's powertrain is an integrated powerpack. MBT-2000 doesn't even have an integrated powerpack, its Ukrainian KMDB 6TD-2 engine is separate from its transmission and other drivetrain components. There are no comparison between the two. Ukrainian engines has NO PLACE in the VT4/MBT-3000 project. Ukrainian companies doesn't even produce an integrated powerpack.
 
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