*New J-10 Thread*

[zachjeli]

It seems F-35 just have its first flight not long ago .[/QUOTE]

yea the F-35 first flew around Dec.15 2006, but the aircraft performed a lot better than what the air force had planed on the first flight. it did loops and rolls and flew to around 40,000 ft. the pilot saaid he loved the aircraft. :china:

What's the difference between assemble and manufacture ?

it means the same thing, to build something

 

[kongliang]

Compare to the J-10 ,F-35 looks so beautiful .
I hope J-14 will have a pretty appearance ,of course ,the performance is of vital importance .

 

[ofone]

Compare to the low cost ,the performance of the J-10 is wonderful ,that is to say J-10 have a comparative advantage ,but the cost of 10 million dollars seems unbelievable .

J1X　1X.　tons　initiated 200X(X＜3)　　first flight 2010-2011　　equipped 201X(X＞6)
maximum take off weight 3X tons　　maximum thrust 17X-18XKN　　推比＞10　RCS 0.0X-0.08
================
If the information above is not wrong ,we won't wait so long to see the first flight of the J-14 ,and at his fastest pace ,we may see his first flight in 2008 .
But the engine is a big problem ,it will not be finished at that time ,of course ,they can use the improved WS-10 instead to wait for the new engine .If I am not wrong ,that engine is called WS-15 .

It seems F-35 just have its first flight not long ago .

Do not need all performances is perfect, it do not need accomplish all kind of mission.

I think at least it can be compared with the best flighter in Russia.

 

[ofone]

Why no one can trust the military expenditure of china announced by the government??
"seems unbelievable"??

 

[tphuang]

The levitations with electric power in German France America and Japan can reach 300km/h in 1970s.

and maglev levitation in shanghai was bought from Siemens.China do not have any correlative tech.

lol, you should really look up the bullet train, TGV first, before you make comment like that. America does not have any train going 300 km/h. I should know, since I live here.
Maglev in China is the first place in the world where such technology got put into field action. Actually, China does have some copy cat maglev rail going, but it just doesn't go as fast and is a lot cheaper.

Godson 2E is over 1 GHz.but it is too new,and it must pass a lot of tests.

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In the second half of the third quarter of 2006, China revealed the latest addition to the Godson series, the Godson 2E, which was already in early stage of manufacturing, and mass production was scheduled at the end of the year

and btw, 1 GHz on Godson 2E is much faster than 1GHz on Pentium since they are using different architecture.

According to developers' paper published on the Journal of Computer Science and Technology, tests show that the Chinese chip can rival Intel Pentium 4 processor in performance and it was superior to the early series of the Pentium IV CPUs, but the Chinese CPU could be produced at a much lower cost.

The reliability not only means to against EMP.In the battlefield,it must works under any environment,any humidity,any temperature,and so on....

you don't know a lot about computer hardware, do you?

There are many Japanese/German/French/English astronauts have been sent to space.EU have the ability to build spaceship,but they didn't.Because they do not need.

China have to build the spaceship by ourselves,and the chinese astronauts came too late.

Yeah, but they all gone as part of NASA. China has the ability to send a man to the space, Europe does not. It has to rely on NASA.

In fact,America never allows technology to seep through to China.Last year,our lab want to buy a thing from America,but finally proved that it's forbidden.We have to buy a similar thing in Japan.

America never give a chance to China to make China become a friend.Is this right??

There is absolutely nothing wrong with American thinking in this regard. Of course, you won't understand this unless you live in America.

J-10 is not designed in one city.Do you think all the aeronautical engineers in China are just living in Chengdu,Shenyang,or Nanjing......

The income of a common engineer in China is no more than 10000 dollars per year.And this part of money is payed by the government,no matter whether there is a J-10 project or not.So this part of money do not include into the cost of J-10 project.

As the same,the government give moneys to buy a lot of machines,no matter whether there is a J-10 project.Those do no include too.

There will be also some special fees to the J-10 project,its the cost of J-10 project.

The resources and the materials which is needed in J-10 flighter can be supported by the government by a very low price.

The flighter is build by the government,the research institutions and the factorys belong to government.The government will not earn the money
of themselves.So the cost is very low.

If J-10 will be saled to Pakistan,it may be 25 millions dollars per flighter or more.

you will just keep on going, wouldn't you?
Let's look at a few things:
- Pakistan already decided to pay more than 40 million dollar per J-10.
- J-10 costs far more than what you mentionned, it's costs around 25 million per fighter for China. This is verified on Chinese forums by people with far more credentials than yourself.
- I don't think you understand the simple concept of the complex machinery that CAC has to purchase just to build J-10 to an acceptable workmanship level.
- yes, we know about Airbus assembling plants in Tianjin. We know about Harbin's venture with Embraer for ERJ-45. We know about ARJ-21 assembling plant in Shanghai. We know where the main aircraft development is done in China. We know which plants in China are delivering fighters and bombers. We know which plants in China are delivering parts to Boeing and Airbus. Even after this, we are telling you that the most important aeronautical engineers are working at 601, 611 and 603, not Tianjin.

Basically, I think it would do yourself quite a lot of good to first read through some of the J-10 posts on this thread and other threads. Especially by Crobato, people on this forum are not as ignorant of China as you think. Arguments like "I saw this aircraft and it's no good" do not fly in this forum. You need to make arguments based on logic + evidences and such.

That also goes for the other new members. Please read through some of the posts on this thread before making further post.

 

[kongliang]

A chinese expert had said that :the cost of J-10 that our air force deployed is less than 200 million RMB ,but he did not say what the actual cost of the J-10 .

In my opinion ,the gap can not be so large .

 

[ofone]

and btw, 1 GHz on Godson 2E is much faster than 1GHz on Pentium since they are using different architecture.

you don't know a lot about computer hardware, do you?

You don't know a lot about ordnance engineering,do you?
Why NASA don't send spaceflight with brand new computers?

Yeah, but they all gone as part of NASA. China has the ability to send a man to the space, Europe does not. It has to rely on NASA.

The European Space Agency have the ability to compete with NASA.They had the ability to send a man to the space before China,though they didn't.

you will just keep on going, wouldn't you?
Let's look at a few things:
- Pakistan already decided to pay more than 40 million dollar per J-10.
- J-10 costs far more than what you mentionned, it's costs around 25 million per fighter for China. This is verified on Chinese forums by people with far more credentials than yourself.
- I don't think you understand the simple concept of the complex machinery that CAC has to purchase just to build J-10 to an acceptable workmanship level.
- yes, we know about Airbus assembling plants in Tianjin. We know about Harbin's venture with Embraer for ERJ-45. We know about ARJ-21 assembling plant in Shanghai. We know where the main aircraft development is done in China. We know which plants in China are delivering fighters and bombers. We know which plants in China are delivering parts to Boeing and Airbus. Even after this, we are telling you that the most important aeronautical engineers are working at 601, 611 and 603, not Tianjin.

Basically, I think it would do yourself quite a lot of good to first read through some of the J-10 posts on this thread and other threads. Especially by Crobato, people on this forum are not as ignorant of China as you think. Arguments like "I saw this aircraft and it's no good" do not fly in this forum. You need to make arguments based on logic + evidences and such.

That also goes for the other new members. Please read through some of the posts on this thread before making further post.

I don't dare to say how cheap is J-10 in chinese forum.the government can find me any time.
In chinese forum,there are just a few experts and they don't dare to say the truth too.So the informations there are not reliable too.

And a lot of things in china is not like what had been publicized.The top research institutions all had been disguised.

 

[ofone]

The best aviation university in china is in Beijing Nanjing and Tianjin.
The best aviation electromechanic company is in Tianjin and Lanzhou.
The best aviation factory is enshroud in Taihang mountain.And WS-10A is named by Taihang mountain.
J-10 is made by the whole country,and it's so hard......

 

[goldenpanda]

hard is good ofone. hard is how you grow.

can you grow some integrity so a secret is a secret, no matter where you are? you are a sad person I wish you not working defense industry.

 

[AmiGanguli]

You guys are mixing up a lot of different concepts.

Cost can be measured in a lot of different ways. I'll leave it to people who know more about military tech than me to break down the factors, but I can talk about the economics of it.

R&D cost is sunk. You can amortize it over the life of the plane for accounting purposes, but you're never getting that money back, so it makes no difference when considering whether or not to buy additional units. When exporting the plane, you're more likely to try to recoup some of that R&D cost, but if you're bidding against a comparable competitor, you might be willing to sell at a "loss" as long as your marginal cost is covered.

If you have an expensive computer controlled precision milling machine dedicated to making aircraft components, then part of that is sunk cost, but you need to consider the possible alternative uses for it. If you can't sell it off and can't use it to build anything else, then it's sunk cost just like R&D. In reality, the market for used milling machines is probably huge in a growing manufacturing giant like China, so this isn't a sunk cost. Ironically, that means a lot of the expensive equipment is actually marginal cost, and needs to be recouped for each plane.

Other things are somewhere in between. The factory where the plane is built could be put to other purposes, but it would probably take a lot of time and some renovations.

My conclusions:

The wages of engineers are irrelevant. These are sunk R&D costs. Yes, they are amortized over the life of the plane, but you don't save any R&D money by not buying another unit.

Expensive precision machinery is mostly a marginal cost, since the machinery could be sold (assuming it wasn't custom built for making fighters). Since this stuff is traded on the world market, there's no reason to think it should be cheaper in China than in (for example) the U.S.

Manufacturing labour is a marginal cost and of course much cheaper in China.

As for technology level, any complex product like a fighter is made up of a lot of different technologies. China will be almost at par with the west in technologies that have mass-market civilian counterparts. There's no reason to think, for example, that the actual computer hardware in a J-10 is inferior to an F-22, at least not by more than three or four years. Specialized software or military jet engines are a different story, but it's always to easier to catch-up than to blaze the trail.

... Ami.