New Energy Vehicles (NEVs) in China

sndef888 said:

Something interesting I just found out is that China has even stricter emission standards for cars than Europe.

From left to right: China 5, China 6a (current), Euro 6d (current) and China 6b

From what I've heard, China 6b will be implemented in 2023, or maybe delayed a couple years. The biggest problem with it is that the particulate standards are incredibly high and will require cars to install a particulate filter, which will reduce engine power and cause heating issues for turbos.

Personally I think this is too fast. Chinese auto companies are still uncompetitive in terms of engines and this move could kill a lot of companies, even more than the current slaughter of companies like BAIC, FAW, Dongfeng, Brilliance, JAC. Other than BYD and maybe GAC, all the other companies are not transitioning fast enough to EVs. This move could kill them before they make the transition

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Awesome, let's kill these slow moving companies. Remember this one?

BYD seems to be pretty proud of its Xiaoyun engine. It was, until very recently, the most thermal efficient mill in mass production. According to BYD, it manages to convert 43% of the chemical energy contained in gasoline into movement. Before that, Toyota had the best work in that regard with the Dynamic Force 2-liter engine (41%). BYD’s kingdom was brief: Geely announced in November the DHE1.5 engine, capable of delivering 43.32% in thermal efficiency. As remarkable as that is, that's still very far from EVs.

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Engines from Chinese automakers are really competitive. Don't underestimate them. If the legacy automakers can't handle the stricter emission standard and can't transition to NEVs fast enough, let them all die. And then, the fittest ones like BYD can take over and produce cars people actually want. I would venture to guess that the stricter emission standards are far more problematic for GM or Stellantis than Chinese cars.

tphuang said:

Awesome, let's kill these slow moving companies. Remember this one?

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Engines from Chinese automakers are really competitive. Don't underestimate them. If the legacy automakers can't handle the stricter emission standard and can't transition to NEVs fast enough, let them all die. And then, the fittest ones like BYD can take over and produce cars people actually want. I would venture to guess that the stricter emission standards are far more problematic for GM or Stellantis than Chinese cars.

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BYD is shaping up to dominate the EV space within China, I wouldn't be surprised in 10 years time it'll filter down to 2/3 major EV brands that has absorbed everyone else, in auto manufacturing, scale is king and it's doubly true for EVs which require such a complicated supply chain.

sndef888 said:

Something interesting I just found out is that China has even stricter emission standards for cars than Europe.

From left to right: China 5, China 6a (current), Euro 6d (current) and China 6b

From what I've heard, China 6b will be implemented in 2023, or maybe delayed a couple years. The biggest problem with it is that the particulate standards are incredibly high and will require cars to install a particulate filter, which will reduce engine power and cause heating issues for turbos.

Personally I think this is too fast. Chinese auto companies are still uncompetitive in terms of engines and this move could kill a lot of companies, even more than the current slaughter of companies like BAIC, FAW, Dongfeng, Brilliance, JAC. Other than BYD and maybe GAC, all the other companies are not transitioning fast enough to EVs. This move could kill them before they make the transition

Click to expand...

There is a huge global market for ICE, and it will last for decades, China can and should grab it, otherwise it’s a cash cow for others.

Also, by having the best emissions standards China protects itself against environmental sanctions and in fact allows it to use those kind of sanctions against others.

It can be a great boost to the ICE economy and the worlds environment if China can add particulate filters to cars and capture particles economically.

China is setting high standards for these particles, and other volatile organics, so for health reasons I hope the apply these emissions standards ASAP so as to quickly see the benefits.

sunnymaxi said:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1567474941552988160

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BYD selling cars in Japan. Toyota and Honda ask to form Chinese joint ventures and use Chinese batteries for their EVs. Oh my, how the tables have turned. I don't think anyone could have predicted this 10 years ago

coolgod said:

BYD selling cars in Japan. Toyota and Honda ask to form Chinese joint ventures and use Chinese batteries for their EVs. Oh my, how the tables have turned. I don't think anyone could have predicted this 10 years ago

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I accidentally came across this 5-year old article, and it shows just how much Japanese car makers are in trouble.

Toyota plans to start selling EVs in China in 2020​

After sticking with hybrids and hydrogen, it's going big on electric.
November 17, 2017

Toyota recently announced plans to and EVs with Mazda in the US, but it has big plans elsewhere, too. The automaker will produce electric cars in both and starting in 2020, it said in a pair of press releases. Up until now, Toyota has focused on hydrogen and hybrid vehicles as green options, but its recent political and environmental developments have forced its hand. China, for one, aims to have two million EVs and hybrids on the road by 2019, and India plans to gas-powered vehicle sales completely by 2030.

The automaker said it's also working on plug-in hybrid versions of the Corolla and Levin for China, and will evaluate the potential of hydrogen fuel cells for buses and other commercial vehicles in China.

Despite pioneering the hybrid with its Prius, Toyota admitted last month that it is a "little bit late" to the EV party compared to rivals like Nissan. To accelerate its plans in India, it's joining up with Suzuki, which will build the vehicles while Toyota provides technical support. In China, it's "considering having our joint-venture partners provide us with EVs," said Toyota's China chief, Hiroji Onishi. Doing so will also help Toyota qualify for credits in China.

Toyota also has big plans in the US, as it recently joined up with Mazda to design all-new EVs and build a $1.6 billion assembly plant. The companies will eventually produce some 300,000 electric cars per year, while aiming to "avoid the commoditization of EVs," they said in a joint statement.

Toyota has produced the Prius since 1997, but has only built two pure EVs, the Scion iQ minicar and RAV 4 EV. In 2011, Chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada famously said that Toyota wouldn't produce a pure electric vehicle "because we do not believe there is a market to accept it." Since then, most major automakers have overhauled their roadmaps to include electric car lineups, thanks in part to anti-pollution regulations in countries like and improved battery technology.

Andy1974 said:

There is a huge global market for ICE, and it will last for decades, China can and should grab it, otherwise it’s a cash cow for others.

Also, by having the best emissions standards China protects itself against environmental sanctions and in fact allows it to use those kind of sanctions against others.

It can be a great boost to the ICE economy and the worlds environment if China can add particulate filters to cars and capture particles economically.

China is setting high standards for these particles, and other volatile organics, so for health reasons I hope the apply these emissions standards ASAP so as to quickly see the benefits.

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GAC has competitive ICE cars. They should export more and displace the Japanese worldwide at even faster rate. Both Chinese ICE and EV can hit them hard.

eprash said:

Why wouldn't Chinese gov consolidate all into one Giant state owned Chip maker? seems efficient that way

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China already has multiple state owned chipmakers in different fields.

sndef888 said:

Something interesting I just found out is that China has even stricter emission standards for cars than Europe.

From left to right: China 5, China 6a (current), Euro 6d (current) and China 6b

From what I've heard, China 6b will be implemented in 2023, or maybe delayed a couple years. The biggest problem with it is that the particulate standards are incredibly high and will require cars to install a particulate filter, which will reduce engine power and cause heating issues for turbos.

Personally I think this is too fast. Chinese auto companies are still uncompetitive in terms of engines and this move could kill a lot of companies, even more than the current slaughter of companies like BAIC, FAW, Dongfeng, Brilliance, JAC. Other than BYD and maybe GAC, all the other companies are not transitioning fast enough to EVs. This move could kill them before they make the transition

Click to expand...

is this as big of a problem for hybrid engines as it is for mechanically coupled ICE cars?

Alright, even Bloomberg caught onto this news

150k per year doesn't sound like a lot, but this will probably be the largest plant outside of China until they build one in Europe. This will probably also do more local assembly than their other ones. The one in India is supposed to be SKD assembly and for 10k a year. I think they are also likely to do one in Brazil for CKD assembly and 10k a year. The one in Uzebekistan is likely to be somewhere in between.

Interesting how they said the EV supply chain will follow BYD there, since BYD is large part of its own supply chain. I do think it signals that the JV will do a lot of work locally. This is probably also to allow them to label cars to be exported as Thailand car and get around possible tariffs on Chinese cars.