Honestly I feel like Nio is Porsche and Xpeng is Audi instead (or maybe Lexus)
New Energy Vehicles (NEVs) in China
- Thread starter supercat
- Start date
I don't see this BYD alliance with NIO and XPeng at all. Here is the tweet showing that battery installation effort of CATL and BYD from Q1
Notice how over 95% of BYD's EV batteries were installed on BYD vehicles?
Whereas for CATL, about 20% of its capacities were installed on Tesla and the rest is kind of even divided among many automakers. CALB is mostly installed on GAC and Xpeng, but also has a lot larger customer base.
This just confirms Taylor Ogan's comment that everyone is knocking on BYD's door for its blade battery technology, but it's too busy building its own vehicles with it. You can see why BYD is building so many battery factories at the same time. The current production level can barely cover BYD's own expanding EV production. Also IIRC, NIO is look for semi-solid state battery for its cars. That's something BYD does not currently produce. So, I think BYD will be very selective about its alliances. It has picked one with Toyota. I think it will use that Toyota partnership to access more international markets. As of now, Toyota is probably complaining BYD is too busy building EVs and batteries for itself and not for their JV. I also see BYD partnering up with Apple or another American company for greater presence in US market. It would be much harder for US government to block BYD produced vehicles if they are under a JV with a well known American brand.
I do see cooperation between BYD and NIO/XPeng when it comes to charging station and charging standard. This makes a lot of sense to me. They can only export more if the international market has charging stations that can charge their cars. Tesla is notorious for having its own proprietary super chargers that don't work with other EVs.
Notice how over 95% of BYD's EV batteries were installed on BYD vehicles?
Whereas for CATL, about 20% of its capacities were installed on Tesla and the rest is kind of even divided among many automakers. CALB is mostly installed on GAC and Xpeng, but also has a lot larger customer base.
This just confirms Taylor Ogan's comment that everyone is knocking on BYD's door for its blade battery technology, but it's too busy building its own vehicles with it. You can see why BYD is building so many battery factories at the same time. The current production level can barely cover BYD's own expanding EV production. Also IIRC, NIO is look for semi-solid state battery for its cars. That's something BYD does not currently produce. So, I think BYD will be very selective about its alliances. It has picked one with Toyota. I think it will use that Toyota partnership to access more international markets. As of now, Toyota is probably complaining BYD is too busy building EVs and batteries for itself and not for their JV. I also see BYD partnering up with Apple or another American company for greater presence in US market. It would be much harder for US government to block BYD produced vehicles if they are under a JV with a well known American brand.
I do see cooperation between BYD and NIO/XPeng when it comes to charging station and charging standard. This makes a lot of sense to me. They can only export more if the international market has charging stations that can charge their cars. Tesla is notorious for having its own proprietary super chargers that don't work with other EVs.
The supply chain is going to be global and long. The eco-system is going to be global and messy. Letting TSLA in with 100% ownership and breaking all the previous rules of the foreign owned auto companies for Elon was one of the smartest thing China/Shanghai government has ever done since the reform and opening up. And it took vision and courage on the government part to overcome all the entrenched interests in China's entire auto industry. That is definitely a shining chapter in that EV story. Certainly it will take a long time for the EV eco-system to evolve and scale globally. But we have already passed the point of no-return. I am just crossing my fingers and see which ICE giants fade first. Market transition is alway brutal and interesting. This time is not just mechanics and electrics or even electronics. It is essentially going to be 5G-enabled AIoT on wheels with zero emission. And that puts those ICE giants at great disadvantages. I am curious about your takes.
The BYD deal with Toyota is not an alliance or even a JV. It's simply BYD being a contract manufacturer for Toyota, and I see this as a one-off deal.
And if BYD/NIO/XPeng have cooperation in terms of charging stations, charging standards and car component sharing - it does start to look like an informal alliance. As for semi-solid state batteries, I reckon that is at least 5 years away.
As for BYD battery supply, I see this taking longer to reflect in the statistics as NIO and XPeng have to design new cars around the Blade Battery first.
I'd rate the formation of a BYD/NIO/XPeng cross-shareholding at around 50% probability, sometime in the future.
Absolutely, letting Tesla in is one of the best decisions china made in a long time. It elevated nev to a different level and helped all the local ev producers since they are now considered to be premium. It also elevated catl as the top battery producer in the world. As long as Chinese battery makers continue to invest in engineering and develop new technology, they will dominate this very crucial new tech field. Not only ev, but home and renewable energy storage is a huge part of our future. Having low cost battery solution and manufacturing allows china control all the renewable solutions.
In Asia, I see Chinese automakers put a lot of Japanese and Korean automakers out of business asean countries start to buy Chinese nev rather than Japanese and Korean ice cars. In us, I think at least one if not more of the big 3 will go under. In Europe, all the legacy automakers will be in trouble. It's just a matter of how many will get bailed out by their home country.
I see byd really be able to pick and choose who it cooperates with. All these legacy players will want their technology and byd can choose the one that gives it the best market access.
This reuters article describes in pretty good detail the arrangement between BYD and Toyota. It pretty just read as Toyota paying BYD to build a car for them and then put the Toyota sticker over the top. Toyota is relying on BYD to produce cars for it in the medium cost EV segment. Keep in mind that Mercedes also had a JV with BYD in Denza, which is now fully BYD owned. We will see how this goes. There is not a lot of incentive for BYD to try hard here when it only makes part of the profit. As Toyota relies more on BYD to be competitive in EV space, it will have to lead them making this 30k EV available in other part of Asia, including Japan.
BYD has no problem finding people willing to buy its NEVs or battery. In that aspect, it's not so different from Tesla. It has trouble ramping up production fast enough to meet the demand. However with all the additional factories coming on line, I see it able to ramp up production better than even Tesla.
I was a little surprised by NIO and the semi solid state claim, but that's what they said.
AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
If China is decoupling from the rest of the world, why are they worried about Chinese competition? The fact is it is the West that's decoupling from China. They're the ones that are disengaging with the world's factory. Before China's rise in the world economy, the West didn't even bother looking at the rest of the world as a market to sell to. Refrigerators and air conditioners were consider luxury items only found in the West. If the West was smart, they would've had China make those luxury items and they could sell them to the developing world but instead they thought it was a waste of time and their money so China did it. They fear China's Belt and Road because it's about developing the parts of the world the West thought was a waste of time and never bothered. So is it China decoupling from the world or is it the West? The "world" they're talking about is still only the Western world so arrogant they don't even acknowledge the world they need to get those important raw materials from in order to compete with China. That's how myopic their views are where the furthest they can see ahead is thinking what they're going to have for their next meal.
Everything the West does cost more money to do. That's why they won't be beating China.
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With most consumer goods the more economies of scale you get the better you can sell your products. China has the biggest internal such market in the world. I think once the Chinese government standardizes things across regions you will see this accelerate. It will make the Chinese economy more competitive. But it will also make it less resilient in case of economic collapse. It is a tradeoff.
But the names of submarines are from NATO.Same naming scheme as Chinese submarines.