Movies in General

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
His maternal grandfather was a German sailor if I remember corretly. Do you have any clues that he felt much for his European ancestry connection. Whatever ancestry he had, he seems to have been Chinese by choice. That does include a strong sensitivity to perceived discrimination. I don't claim that it didn't exist, but the Chinese might be more touchy about it then others.
Btw. someone of some German and a lot of Chinese ancestry making a career in Hollywood so recent after WWII? Just imagine a Chinese character speaking with a strong rolling "R", what should the poor US audience make of that? On the other hand, he could have joined Star Trek.

It's interesting to see others' perspective. There are plenty of Asians that don't identify with being Asian even when they have no mixed heritage. I know from a Western perspective they see that as a choice of who's best. But can't it be the other way around of the pespective that you just gave? Do they desire to be "white" because of perceived prejudice and discrimination against Asians? I have a friend I've known since we were kids. He married a Filipina and has two children. They don't look white but they say they're white and nothing else. Now why do they think that? Because I know the mother. Her mother told her to marry only white because she'll have a better life. That's not because Westerners will treat her better. It's all about status. Just like her kids see only in the superficialities of a child's perspective, it's better being white than Filipino because white people get treated better. They don't understand all the nuances and history so they have just plain honest perspective. They see whites treated better because society deems it so. So naturally they're going to want to be identified as white.

Plenty of self-hating Asians that will choose the West over their own ethnic heritage. It doesn't means the West treats people better. I believe they call that Stockholm Syndrome. Asians do well in the West. Is it becuase the West gives certain privileges that make Asians do well? Westerners would love to take credit that because Asians do well it's because they don't discriminate. What about the other minorities that aren't doing as well? If Asians are given privileges that turn into success, then that must mean Western society denies those privileges to other minorities that are not doing as well. And why is that? There's discrimination by race.

You're German, right? I have never been to Germany but reading the BBC world opinion poll every year, the Germans out of all the Western countries have the worst opinion of Chinese. I don't ever want to go to Germany. My perceptiion of Germany maybe wrong but the same can be said to suggest Chinese treat mix-raced race people worse so to say Bruce Lee chose to be Chinese because that went with the flow. I can note plenty of cases to say the same for Western society and how they discriminate. In the US it use to be if a white looking person just had one drop of African blood, they were considered black. That legacy lives on to this day. If you look ethnic, you are treated differently.

People can be married to another race. It doesn't mean they can't be racist. In the West it's more acceptable for a white man to be married out of his race than a white woman. That's because that's equivalent to one race conquering another by taking the spoils of war. They don't want vice versa happening. I know people like that. There were Jews in the ranks of Hitler's elite Nazi SS and he knew it. Does that make Hitler not anti-Semitic? My friend, who's white, told me about his landlord when he was in college who was African-American married to a hot blonde white woman who hated Asians. Is she not a racist? I know plenty of Asians that would be like Jewish collaborators in the Nazi death camps if they thought it would get them accepted by Westerners. Does that make it all right because it's Asians hating on other Asians? And that's why Hitler accepted people who were Jewish in the ranks of the Nazi SS because he saw their self-hatred as legitimizing what he believed about the Jews. If Jews would do this to their own, what he believed about them must be correct and therefore his final solution wasn't criminal to him.

Bruce Lee's time wasn't recent. He lived during a time of great overt racial strife in the West. Let's just say your angle were the case. What makes it stand out to say Chinese prejudice was worse than the West at the time to bring it up today when Bruce Lee's success was born from Western prejudice? Nothing really because the fact was back then they could care less about how the Chinese treated Bruce Lee. It was a non-subject. So it's disingenuous for any Westerner to bring up how Bruce Lee was treated by Chinese people because all Westerners back then saw Bruce Lee as 100% Chinese.

I know some are going to bring up how this infomation comes from his own daughter. A daughter that was a baby when he died and never knew her father. What's said about how Bruce Lee was affected by Chinese prejudice can be said the other way behind the motivation of Bruce Lee's daughter saying it today. Linda Lee Cadwell, the mother who reared her is white and she's more influenced by Western culture. For someone who's US career is riding off her father's legacy, she probably knows she won't score points by reminding Americans about how her father's success was motivated by Western racism. Again like I mentioned earlier, back then not many people outside Bruce Lee's circle knew that his mother was half-white. That kind of information today is taken granted of because this is the information age... something the world didn't have back then. So it didn't play a role against Bruce Lee life like its made out to which his success in Asia attests to. Bruce's success in Asia was the complete opposite of his experience in Hollywood. So to say Chinese prejudice troubled Bruce Lee's life more than from the West is unrealistic.
 
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jackliu

Banned Idiot
This is what happens when your whole life is base on trying to gain the best material life, getting accepted by your peers and take everything for face value.

I was like that once, I accepted whatever the society taught me, until I start reading, I find out well over 90% of what I learned or know to be obviously the truth turns out to be PURE BULLSHIT.

Human race should be the accumulation of knowledge and wisdom from countless past generations, instead human society today is just are primitive as the ones in the stone ages, people are still taking things for face value and believe whenever the government, the authority tell them to believe. So much of public schools and education, they don't teach, they brainwash, they force you to think and accept the reality that they deems to be "correct". And teach you to hate whatever they deed is the "enemy".
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
It's not only that it's society's material world that perpetuate social status with obtaining materialistic goods anyway you can, both ethically and unethically. How can a society that harbors popularity as a value over wisdom and knowledge expects to thrive economically and stability? Internet and social networks doesn't improve democracy any more than a newspaper, it just exploits the dumbing down of today's world.
 

paintgun

Senior Member
This is what happens when your whole life is base on trying to gain the best material life, getting accepted by your peers and take everything for face value.

I was like that once, I accepted whatever the society taught me, until I start reading, I find out well over 90% of what I learned or know to be obviously the truth turns out to be PURE BULLSHIT.

Human race should be the accumulation of knowledge and wisdom from countless past generations, instead human society today is just are primitive as the ones in the stone ages, people are still taking things for face value and believe whenever the government, the authority tell them to believe. So much of public schools and education, they don't teach, they brainwash, they force you to think and accept the reality that they deems to be "correct". And teach you to hate whatever they deed is the "enemy".

because people are stupid, those who aren't stupid are selfish
hence the world we are living in :)
 

Kurt

Junior Member
It's interesting to see others' perspective. There are plenty of Asians that don't identify with being Asian even when they have no mixed heritage. I know from a Western perspective they see that as a choice of who's best. But can't it be the other way around of the pespective that you just gave? Do they desire to be "white" because of perceived prejudice and discrimination against Asians? I have a friend I've known since we were kids. He married a Filipina and has two children. They don't look white but they say they're white and nothing else. Now why do they think that? Because I know the mother. Her mother told her to marry only white because she'll have a better life. That's not because Westerners will treat her better. It's all about status. Just like her kids see only in the superficialities of a child's perspective, it's better being white than Filipino because white people get treated better. They don't understand all the nuances and history so they have just plain honest perspective. They see whites treated better because society deems it so. So naturally they're going to want to be identified as white.

Plenty of self-hating Asians that will choose the West over their own ethnic heritage. It doesn't means the West treats people better. I believe they call that Stockholm Syndrome. Asians do well in the West. Is it becuase the West gives certain privileges that make Asians do well? Westerners would love to take credit that because Asians do well it's because they don't discriminate. What about the other minorities that aren't doing as well? If Asians are given privileges that turn into success, then that must mean Western society denies those privileges to other minorities that are not doing as well. And why is that? There's discrimination by race.

You're German, right? I have never been to Germany but reading the BBC world opinion poll every year, the Germans out of all the Western countries have the worst opinion of Chinese. I don't ever want to go to Germany. My perceptiion of Germany maybe wrong but the same can be said to suggest Chinese treat mix-raced race people worse so to say Bruce Lee chose to be Chinese because that went with the flow. I can note plenty of cases to say the same for Western society and how they discriminate. In the US it use to be if a white looking person just had one drop of African blood, they were considered black. That legacy lives on to this day. If you look ethnic, you are treated differently.

People can be married to another race. It doesn't mean they can't be racist. In the West it's more acceptable for a white man to be married out of his race than a white woman. That's because that's equivalent to one race conquering another by taking the spoils of war. They don't want vice versa happening. I know people like that. There were Jews in the ranks of Hitler's elite Nazi SS and he knew it. Does that make Hitler not anti-Semitic? My friend, who's white, told me about his landlord when he was in college who was African-American married to a hot blonde white woman who hated Asians. Is she not a racist? I know plenty of Asians that would be like Jewish collaborators in the Nazi death camps if they thought it would get them accepted by Westerners. Does that make it all right because it's Asians hating on other Asians? And that's why Hitler accepted people who were Jewish in the ranks of the Nazi SS because he saw their self-hatred as legitimizing what he believed about the Jews. If Jews would do this to their own, what he believed about them must be correct and therefore his final solution wasn't criminal to him.

Bruce Lee's time wasn't recent. He lived during a time of great overt racial strife in the West. Let's just say your angle were the case. What makes it stand out to say Chinese prejudice was worse than the West at the time to bring it up today when Bruce Lee's success was born from Western prejudice? Nothing really because the fact was back then they could care less about how the Chinese treated Bruce Lee. It was a non-subject. So it's disingenuous for any Westerner to bring up how Bruce Lee was treated by Chinese people because all Westerners back then saw Bruce Lee as 100% Chinese.

I know some are going to bring up how this infomation comes from his own daughter. A daughter that was a baby when he died and never knew her father. What's said about how Bruce Lee was affected by Chinese prejudice can be said the other way behind the motivation of Bruce Lee's daughter saying it today. Linda Lee Cadwell, the mother who reared her is white and she's more influenced by Western culture. For someone who's US career is riding off her father's legacy, she probably knows she won't score points by reminding Americans about how her father's success was motivated by Western racism. Again like I mentioned earlier, back then not many people outside Bruce Lee's circle knew that his mother was half-white. That kind of information today is taken granted of because this is the information age... something the world didn't have back then. So it didn't play a role against Bruce Lee life like its made out to which his success in Asia attests to. Bruce's success in Asia was the complete opposite of his experience in Hollywood. So to say Chinese prejudice troubled Bruce Lee's life more than from the West is unrealistic.


I see your points, but I don't agree. Bruce Lee was of mixed descend that did include German and Han Chinese and I have not a clue what his children are doing. I informed myself with a paperback about his biography because I admire the man and his achievements. He grew up in a society where he learned to hide the German part and he moved to try his hand at winning recognition in a society that ridiculed and despised his Chinese heritage. He married a woman of seemingly Anglo-American ancestry and had children with her. At the top of that he not only turned the tables viewing the Chinese martial capabilities and establishing Chinese influenced stunt choreography as mainstream media and central element of the popular US action films, he became a legend with many people across all races, nations, religions, whatever admiring him and striving to learn from him. That's a story.

As to racially prejudiced portraits, the Germans are quite fed up with the Nazi role and being ridiculed for their strong rolling "R". The Chinese have a major problem learning to pronounce the "R" other than like an "L". Both letters are very similar in shaping with the tongue, but in Europe they are heard like a difference between day and night. So a Chinese who not only speaks with a perfect "R", but with the most resounding German rolling "R" is quite a shock for stereotypes.

Like in every society, including the current Chinese culture, there are prejudices. This can be pro-European and believe me, for a European this can include the strangest things to imagine. In German the term "Mandelauge" for the epicanthic fold is associated with beautiful, including the conservative tabloid "Bild". The Chinese trying to emulate Europeans, because they think these are better, are just about as racist as the guys looking down upon other races. Unfortunately, I know of no history or culture where this human trait did not exist. This explicitly includes the Chinese, who also always had their racists.
The whole problem of China having to catch up to the West can be seen as a result of inflated racism and disinterest in developments in other parts of the world. So the racism between these Chinese and the "Southern Barbarians" was mutual, but one side had more firepower and extracted the money, the other side didn't. Add to this that the military superior side was on their paths to glory in WWI and WWII with over the top "racial differences science", then you get the picture.
Ever since, China has switched from a European point of view from one extreme to another, while Europe struggles with suppressing and expressing racism (politically correct) without feeling that they are on the same old warpath again. Looking closer at racism, you'll notice that it has much to do with creating a perfect society that will be stagnant and perfect forever. It's an absolute idea that mistakes outward cultural expressions with genetic heritage.
To end each and every racism debate, take a look at animal breeding, their achievements and trade offs in animal health. Up to date that's the best cure to pseudo-genetic racial prejudices that in essence are about culture.
This issue you seem to overlook because you only view interaction between cultures. Within each and every racist culture in history the racism does just as well alienate parts of their own society and culture as inferior. These are often less wealthy people or members of a different religious denomiation, be it Irish Catholics or Jews. Racism is one of the most effective tools people have invented to stabilize massive income and wealth inequality by a binding narrative of fear and aggression. It's like mobbing in order to demonstrate power and enhance the social binding to the powerful mobber at the expense of the health and feelings weaker humans in that game. Nazi Germany was created by and protected rich guys (against attempts to close the income difference that were distorted into Communist extremism pictures), who were greedy and wanted more, killing the Jews and other "less than perfect humans" was just an expression of greed to get all material value out of meaningless human life that had no place in the perfect order they wanted to create.

As for the "White" countries, the bloodline emphasis on white or not white was about consumption of a rare import, women from Europe and even better women from a valued European country (Europe has a shifting value ranking within) or best from the home country and from a wealthy and renown family. This expensive to maintain human import had to be fed with all stuff she had or wished to have in Europe. In return, obtaining such a trophy wife raised the status and all these countries are associated with a great degree of social inequality and with timocratic rule (often of plantation owners). The timocratic rule was, as usual, feudalised by heritage emphasis in which the imported women themselves played a major role, because it gave them their luxuries. This whole trophy wife issue is a kind of hidden prostitution and in order to maintain it and hide the too blatant truth, a whole plethora of racial theory and race value were constructed around it. If you were a prostitute, won't you do the same to defend your turf?

Current antipathy for Chinese has to do with perceived disrespect for German intellectual property. It's a widespread feeling that the competition between Germany and China is illegally rigged by the Chinese and that costs hard working family fathers their jobs. The good feelings steam from the long positive connection of both cultures and a lot of people do learn Chinese. The Chinese tower
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has for centuries been one of the most important sights of Munich, one of the major cities of Germany.
 
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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Yes everyone has their racists but it's who are the ones that act and force their beliefs onto others is what that counts. Action speaks louder than words. And since the world doesn't see Chinese influences everywhere, that pretty much says Chinese imperialism was nominal. Some people use how Chinese thought they were the center of the universe as something racist. Again did they force that belief around the world? It was more arrogance than philosophy. And like others haven't thought they were the center of the universe? And they haven't acted to force their beliefs as the only true ones and especially religious onto everyone else? And whatever racism and prejudice noted of Chinese, the Chinese can say the same theirs was shaped by others' racism towards the Chinese. I was once called a racist because I dared to tell some people who spoke in conversation how they only referred to the world as white, black, and Latino that if you added them all together, they still don't make the majority of the world. Who's the one that one that thinks the universe revolves only around them again? A case where some only see the racism in others but not themselves.

Asians are portrayed as racists. But are they anymore racist than anyone else? The historic "official" victims determined by the West who generally point the finger at Asians being racist... Asians have no history of oppressing them. The West is their historic oppressor. If the Germans don't like Nazi history being used, Asians don't like how the people who point the finger of racism are the worst criminals in history of it acting as if Asians are worse. Crimes are only committed by acts and not by thoughts. And the only reason why people want to portray Asians as racist is not because of acts but because of the rise of Asians economic powers that they have to vilify and use racism as an excuse to stop it. Some say European racism towards Asians started because of the Mongolians conquering all the way up to the backyard of Europe. Those are Mongolians. So why are other Asians being blamed when they were victims of Mongolians too? Can any Westerner actually then complain when a crime of one Western country is blamed on them as a whole? Did any other Asian country benefit from the Mongolian conquerers? Is there anyone defending what the Mongolians did? The fact is Westerners protect Mongolians today as if China were the historic threat to them. I'm sure that the West sides with Mongolia's dispute on claims on Chinese territory that they got from conquering. Anyone can spin anything if you leave out all the other information. And that's why it comes down to results from actions that only counts and not thoughts or fictional "what if" scenarios.

Everything being claimed that Bruce Lee was a victim of Chinese prejudice more than Western prejudice is just theory. The fact is Bruce Lee left Hollywood not Hong Kong to make movies that he wanted and starred in them as the lead. If it were true that he felt that his mixed heritage gave him problems in Asia then he would've stayed in more comfortable and tolerant Hollywood. But that was fiction and civil people do not persecute crimes of thought or on imaginary alternate scenarios over what happened in reality.

History is a fickled thing because it's always one side's take over another. So what we do have to go by is what results. Do we see people all over the world speaking Chinese. Do we see people with cultures stripped away from them and they do what we see Chinese do? And we don't see Bruce Lee finding a place and success in Hollywood because of discrimination by the Chinese.
 
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Kurt

Junior Member
A core point of racism that it is rather culturalism than connected to "race". It is a narrative that serves a purpose within the person in a society that expresses that kind of prejudice. Racism allows an unquestionable matter of fact statement about others to the exclusion of others from the cool group. "Racism" starts at school because not everyone is allowed to join prestigious groups of peers and not each of these groups has the same prestige. Such a group is the minimum shared cultural entity and nations are just larger groups consitsting of many layers of subgroups within and having clear group characteristics at the exclusion of others who can rarely simply chose to belong to that cool group.

Chinese racism can not be weighted against European or American racism, but each complaint about racism should start by finding out the own racism of a group and what its effects were. I'm sorry to say that the great culture of China maneuvered themselves into a quagmire of problems since early modern times due to snobbery at other people's capabilities and achievements. The Chinese racism was not so blatant aimed at monetary benefits as China was a scholar-led nation and not a merchant-led nation like the European and American ones (grouped under the Southern Barbarian label). The problem with racism is that it's an expression of internal problems within a society by pointing at another culture.

I think you have a slight problem with other nation's racism because you are yourself racist in a way that you can not tolerate someone not liking and admiring the Chinese. Get over it, look at the achievements, how many martial arts choreographies are based on Asian and how many on European or African templates? Bruce Lee fought an uphill battle, but he made Asian martial arts king of the hill.
 
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jackliu

Banned Idiot
A core point of racism that it is rather culturalism than connected to "race" is that it is a narrative that serves a purpose within the person in a society that expresses that kind of prejudice. Racism allows an unquestionable matter of fact statement about others to the exclusion of others from the cool group. "Racism" starts at school because not everyone is allowed to join prestigious groups of peers and not each of these groups has the same prestige. Such a group is the minimum shared cultural entity and nations are just larger groups consitsting of many layers of subgroups within and having clear group characteristics at the exclusion of others who can rarely simply chose to belong to that cool group.

Chinese racism can not be weighted against European or American racism, but each complaint about racism should start by finding out the own racism of a group and what its effects were. I'm sorry to say that the great culture of China maneuvered themselves into a quagmire of problems since early modern times due to snobbery at other people's capabilities and achievements. The Chinese racism was not so blatant aimed at monetary benefits as China was a scholar-led nation and not a merchant-led nation like the European and American ones (grouped under the Southern Barbarian label). The problem with racism is that it's an expression of internal problems within a society by pointing at another culture.

I think you have a slight problem with other nation's racism because you are yourself racist in a way that you can not tolerate someone not liking and admiring the Chinese. Get over it, look at the achievements, how many martial arts choreographies are based on Asian and how many on European or African templates? Bruce Lee fought an uphill battle, but he made Asian martial arts king of the hill.

rac·ism   [rey-siz-uhm]
noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

rac·ist  [rey-sist]
noun
1. a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that a certain human race is superior to any or all others.

Which part does that fit it? All he said was pointing out the hypocrisy of people calling Chinese racist, while they themselves invented the word of "racism" by modern definitions. And how is pointing that out, and debunk how people think of Chinese vs the reality is being racist? You are a German, I have German friends, they tell me they are sick of the Hitler references, so what if the whole world think Germans are all Nazi to your face all the time, and you got fed up about it and tell them that Germany today has nothing to do with Hitler, does trying to explain to people the reality make you a racist?

Did he say that Chinese culture is superior? Did he say the Chinese race is superior? Did he said he hate or cannot stand of another race that is not Chinese? I mean, do you want to send a new definition to
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to update them on the entry for racism?
 
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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
A core point of racism that it is rather culturalism than connected to "race" is that it is a narrative that serves a purpose within the person in a society that expresses that kind of prejudice. Racism allows an unquestionable matter of fact statement about others to the exclusion of others from the cool group. "Racism" starts at school because not everyone is allowed to join prestigious groups of peers and not each of these groups has the same prestige. Such a group is the minimum shared cultural entity and nations are just larger groups consitsting of many layers of subgroups within and having clear group characteristics at the exclusion of others who can rarely simply chose to belong to that cool group.

Chinese racism can not be weighted against European or American racism, but each complaint about racism should start by finding out the own racism of a group and what its effects were. I'm sorry to say that the great culture of China maneuvered themselves into a quagmire of problems since early modern times due to snobbery at other people's capabilities and achievements. The Chinese racism was not so blatant aimed at monetary benefits as China was a scholar-led nation and not a merchant-led nation like the European and American ones (grouped under the Southern Barbarian label). The problem with racism is that it's an expression of internal problems within a society by pointing at another culture.

I think you have a slight problem with other nation's racism because you are yourself racist in a way that you can not tolerate someone not liking and admiring the Chinese. Get over it, look at the achievements, how many martial arts choreographies are based on Asian and how many on European or African templates? Bruce Lee fought an uphill battle, but he made Asian martial arts king of the hill.

Much of what you said again are thought "crimes." You cannot measure racism by thought and thoughts are never worse than acts.

I never said I don't like people that don't admire the Chinese. I could care less. Where did I say that? I hope you're not being racist because maybe you think another Chinese said that you automatically think I believe that too. I don't value those people's opinion in the first place. And that's not a crime either. This is like the whole talk about soft power. Westerners perpetuate a version that other countries should seek that has no power in it at all. It's a trick to make it look that power comes from getting people to like things from your culture. That's not power. Power lies with those that get to decide what you have is worthy of being liked. Why would I care about someone admiring the Chinese when I find their opinion worthless in the first place? I know Westerners complain about how the West has given the world so much but aren't appreciative or respectful. That's why many Westerners think the world owes them something and they justify their anger because people aren't appreciative of them. So by your definition that's racism.
 
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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
rac·ism   [rey-siz-uhm]
noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

rac·ist  [rey-sist]
noun
1. a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that a certain human race is superior to any or all others.

Which part does that fit it? All he said was pointing out the hypocrisy of people calling Chinese racist, while they themselves invented the word of "racism" by modern definitions. And how is pointing that out, and debunk how people think of Chinese vs the reality is being racist? You are a German, I have German friends, they tell me they are sick of the Hitler references, so what if the whole world think Germans are all Nazi to your face all the time, and you got fed up about it and tell them that Germany today has nothing to do with Hitler, does trying to explain to people the reality make you a racist?

Did he say that Chinese culture is superior? Did he say the Chinese race is superior? Did he said he hate or cannot stand of another race that is not Chinese? I mean, do you want to send a new definition to
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to update them on the entry for racism?

Exactly.
 
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