Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Highly doubtful that any serious operational capability exists.

Just because it is said to be, does not mean that it is.

It has never had an opetrational, full-up system live fire test out into any ocean attempting to hit a manuevering sea vessel. Much less into any serious ECM environment.

Lots of white papers, lots of missile trucks rolling around, a few static firing of some missile into the desert at a static target...but not one, full-up operational, live fire test against a manuevering vessel at sea.

This single fact speaks volumes over all the white papers, all the research papers, and all of the "chatter," that has gone on about this system for years.

When such an operational test is conducted successfully, and documentd as a success...and then repeated numerous times...get back to me. Until then, I view the entiore system as a very strong "Sun Tsu" campaign to attempt to get the US and its allies to not use the assets that are their strength...and it is a very sophisticated operation, IMHO, to do that.

Even then, the system itself, untested and unproven, then would fly directly into the teeth of the strongest defense the US has for its carriers and that is the AEGIS system which, contrary to the DF-21D, has been proven countelss times to be able to live-fire, operationally intercept ballistic missiles.

Now who should I trust more you who has no access whatsoever to Intel or Admiral Willard who has the full weight of PACOM and US navy at his disposal

Both Admiral Willard and Gen Chen Bingde the then Chinese defense minister confirm the existence of ASBM.

Here is excerpt of the interview with Asahi Shimbun

Q [Yoichi Kato]: Let me go into China’s anti-access/area denial (A2/AD) capabilities. What is the current status of China’s anti-ship ballistic missile development, and how close is it to actual operational deployment?

A [Admiral Robert F. Willard, Commander, U.S. Pacific Command]: The anti-ship ballistic missile system in China has undergone extensive testing. An analogy using a Western term would be “initial operational capability,” whereby it has—I think China would perceive that it has—an operational capability now, but they continue to develop it. It will continue to undergo testing, I would imagine, for several more years.

Q: China has achieved IOC?

A: You would have to ask China that, but as we see the development of the system, their acknowledging the system in open press reporting and the continued testing of the system, I would gauge it as about the equivalent of a U.S. system that has achieved IOC.


Not all the weapon system need to be tested I can think of Nuclear weapon that is tested using computer simulation Now did you dare to say, that nuclear does not exist or it won't work properly, because it was never actually tested?

In fact most modern weapon system are tested component by component. So that when they assemble the the system they have high confidence that the system will work

And don't tell me that Admiral Willard try to hype the Chinese threat in order to get defense budget because if he does He definitely failed miserably because irrespective of the hype the Naval budget will be cut So no there is no need to hype up the threat

China have myriad of intermediate ballistic missile since 1960's and they are the only one beside US that can hit missile in midcourse using ground launched missile

China has extensive reconnaissance satellite and other sensor in place to find and track CBG

Compare to hitting missile in midcourse the problem of finding tracking and disable a slow moving CBG is child play.

So despite your opinion. It doesn't change the fact that ASBM is in operation and will get better as the year progress

Another thing all those paper are not BS they are open for scrutiny if it make sense and open for criticism by the scientific peer. Sofar nobody dismiss it as BS In fact there are high regard for the accuracy and ingenuity of Chinese scientist

Don't count on those PAC 3 SAM they are never tested again the real condition. Sofar all the test are against the most primitive missile like Scud
Here what Arthur Erickson has to say
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China’s DF-21D anti-ship ballistic missile (ASBM) is no longer merely an aspiration. Beijing has successfully developed, partially tested and deployed in small numbers the world’s first weapons system capable of targeting the last relatively uncontested U.S. airfield in the Asia-Pacific from long-range, land-based mobile launchers. This airfield is a moving aircraft carrier strike group (CSG), which the Second Artillery, China’s strategic missile force, now has the capability to at least attempt to disable with the DF-21D in the event of conflict. With the ASBM having progressed this far, and representing the vanguard of a broad range of potent asymmetric systems, Beijing probably expects to achieve a growing degree of deterrence with it.

None of this should be surprising. Numerous data points have been emerging from Chinese sources as well as official statements and reports from Washington and Taipei for years now, available to anyone willing to connect them. They offer an instructive case study not only to military analysts, but also to anyone conducting analysis under conditions of imperfect information. For instance, relevant Chinese publications multiplied throughout the late 1990s, dipped in a classic “bathtub-shaped” pattern from 2004 to 2006 at a critical point in ASBM development and component testing, and rose sharply thereafter as China headed towards initial deployment beginning in 2010. China is always more transparent in Chinese, and analysts must act accordingly. …

What is perhaps most surprising is the foreign skepticism and denial that has accompanied China's ASBM. Again, however, this sort of disbelief is nothing new.

At the close of World War II, the following editorial appeared: "The ghost of Billy Mitchell should haunt those who crucified him a few years back when he so openly declared that no nation could win the next war without air superiority and advocated that the US


As for supporting infrastructure, on January 3, 2011, Vice Admiral David Dorsett stated that the PLA "likely has the space-based intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR), command and control structure, and ground processing capabilities necessary to support DF-21D employment... [and also] employs an array of non-space based sensors and surveillance assets capable of providing the targeting information".

Two days later, Dorsett added: "The Chinese have tested the DF-21D missile system over land a sufficient number of times that the missile system itself is truly competent and capable. ... they have ISR, they have sensors onboard ship that can feed into the targeting aspect of it. So could they start to employ that and field it operationally? Yes, I think so."
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
You do realize that carriers have this little (relatively speaking) thing called a rudder?

One that allows them to move in non-linear motions?

Are you simply not aware of the basic physics behind plasma sheathing (it blocks out EW communications)?

Sure, the DF-21D has no problem hitting a 20-50m size target (but not if the target is moving at CVN speed). Those microthruster adjustments aren't going to be much use if the CVN has moved a mile or two since atmospheric reentry.

Jeez, and I thought Russian fanbois were bad.

The CVN is a constantly moving target, and it won't be moving in a straight line. And at 100km, then that leaves the AShBM with a 30 sec-1min window from final trajectory maneuver to impact where the CVN can move anywhere in a circle with a 0.5 mi radius and you can't update it thanks to plasma sheathing effects from the high reentry speed.

May I ask where you get the 6 degree steering figure from?

You think you are smart eh Now do this simple arithmetic Just before the missile reenter the atmosphere it receive the last update and adjust the flight path.Assuming that black out last 3 minute
Now assume again that it take 1 minute to be on the top of CBG about 100km above the sea

Travelling at mach 10-15 which is 12250Km/hr .So the travelling time is (100/(12250/60)) =0.5 minute to the CBG

Now how far can the CBG travel in 4.5 minute Let see at 30 knot which 35 mile/hr or 1/2 mile /min. That CBG can only travel 4.5X1/2 mile less than 3 mile. That is assuming that the missile drop straight into the CBG. If after coming out of the block out jettisoned the outer shield,Then engage their own onboard radar or other sensor(IIR) and make small adjustment(pre prgram) using micro thruster You think that is not possible for the missile to hit the CBG?. Gee some people doesn't know their own limitation but bragged as if they are expert

For Apollo missions, the communications blackout was approximately three minutes long.
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Now who should I trust more you who has no access whatsoever to Intel or Admiral Willard who has the full weight of PACOM and US navy at his disposal

Both Admiral Willard and Gen Chen Bingde the then Chinese defense minister confirm the existence of ASBM.

Here is excerpt of the interview with Asahi Shimbun

[Admiral Robert F. Willard, Commander, U.S. Pacific Command]: The anti-ship ballistic missile system in China has undergone extensive testing. An analogy using a Western term would be “initial operational capability,” whereby it has—I think China would perceive that it has—an operational capability now, but they continue to develop it. It will continue to undergo testing, I would imagine, for several more years.

Q: China has achieved IOC?

A: You would have to ask China that, but as we see the development of the system, their acknowledging the system in open press reporting and the continued testing of the system, I would gauge it as about the equivalent of a U.S. system that has achieved IOC.
1st you make a mistake if you think some of us do not have access to official intel.

2nd, I also have stated that the ASBM exists. Existing and being functional, and fully depoloyed are completely different things. I also have said it has been tested...and never denied it. But I have also stated that it has never had a full-up, live fire test against a manueveriung vessel at sea. Nothing the Admiral said leads me to believe anything different.

In fact, the Admiral was very careful with his words. "Acknowledgement" of the system, "reported" continued testing, "about" the exquivalent...all very careful wording indeed and spoken like a politician. Hehehe...perhaps two can play the Sun Tsu game, no? The fact is IOC can mean a whole lot of things...and the Admiral indicated that the ASBM system would need to go through a lot more testing for many years. The fact is, not one live-fire operational test out over the ocean has been conducted.

3rd, you want to compare this ASMB system as it stands to proven and stiockpiled nuclear weapons? Please, there is no comaprison. Apples and oranges. The US, Russia, and China conducted many many years of live tests of their nuclear designs. Once the design is perfected, you do not need to test new iterations.

But the DF-21D is not perfected. It has not gone through those live tests like so many nuclear and thermo-nuclear designs did. So, please, spare me a straw man comparison where there is none.

As I said, I do not believe the system if fully operational...IOC is not fully operational. IOC can range from having a few out in the field for insurance sake, to a system that has never been completely tested being minimally deployed pending that testing on components un-needed for some part of its operation. But the DF-21D dpes depenmd onm all of those components and they must operate together...and they have not been live fire tested together.

In the end, the Admiral basically said you would have to ask China and deferred by saying he "believed" it would approach what a US system would represent in IOC...and as I said, that designation is all over the map, and as often as not, it is used for political purposes to keep a system from being canceled by giving it that designation so it can continued to be funded. So the Admioral's words about IOC, to those in the know, don't amopunt to much.

I stick by my analysis. Some day, whent the PRC produces the testing data, and the results that can stand on their own...please let me know. Of course by then, we will all know it. You cannot hide a test of that nature out over the open ocean. You have to let people know so they will not mistake it for an actual attack.

I have been watching carefully for years and talking to my own contacts in Naval Intelliogence and US National Security arenas, and there has not been any confirmed tests shooting at manuevering vessels operating at sea. That's just the facts...the Chinese themselves have bnever claimed any such tests have taken place.

So you can say all you wish...until that happens it remains not fully tested or operational, and without said live fire tsts for this new system with so many new technological capabilities for the PRC, its very ability to function properly is understandably called into question.

And, OBTW, if you think that the latest Patritos have only been tested aghainst SCUDS, you are whistling past the graveyard. That was true 20 uears ago...but not at all today. But, in any case, that doesn't even matter.

We are not talking about the Patriot system (which is a very good system as evidenced by the numbers of nations buying it to defend themselves with), we are talking about AEGIS BMD, which is deployed now. In fact we have just deployed two more AEGIS cruisers with BMD to the Japan Sea to add to the ones already there, to defend Japan and South Korea from the blusterings of the insane little guy in North Korea. That's what you do when you have such a system, that everyone knows is operational, and every one knows has been live fire operationally tested (in this case over 70 times, in the open, with the results available, acjeiving success in 75% of those cases).
 
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Lion

Senior Member
And when was the last time China demonstrated a swarming missile attack? That would be never.



The Aegis system can track NUMEROUS targets simultaneously. The Aegis system is all encompassing and each ships system is integrated with other Aegis ships not just in the battle zone but World Wide receiving and processing information 24/7/365. The only time the Aegis system is disabled aboard an Aegis equipped ship is when the ship is under re-fit..

Another members opinion from some years ago.

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/str...ing-hypersonic-missile-13-3987.html#post85300

When PLA second artillery practice missile firing. They don't do one off firing. They usually do it in a few salvo in success firing

[video=youtube;Kbhx4C2dURA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kbhx4C2dURA[/video]
 
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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Thanks for posting Lion. Are those missile test conducted unopposed? Is there any ECM present? Before you ask the US military practices against all sorts of obstacles..electronic and otherwise.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
oh plz there are tons article on stuff, laser weapon, railgun etc, just because its on the theorictical paper doesn't mean its work.
its not only clutter, there are MULTIPLE issues invovle, from clutter, to ID, to Track, to integration, to G-force sustain on components , cooling, real-time processing etc etc. its a complex system in REAL TIME.
cvbg will be hundreds mile away from china where china EW can't reach it, tell me how china gonna counter EW with a ASBM warhead, when entire US CVBG is sending out EW, or you think a few rf power generated by few warhead is on par with entire CVBG+AWAC. ive been in this field for long time, and know what kind diffculty needed to have a real-time.
like i said until there is test, this is just in unproving. unless you got some inside man indicate otherwise. we have seen test conducted for j20, carrier, and other project. back in old days, china test its ICBM to make sure its working. same has to happen for ASBM to consider working. right now, just bunch theoritical papers, i wrote those two, but integrate into a system is different matter.
untill there are test, and not just hitting some stationary target on desert. all these are just BS, and all the paper are just theorictical. nothing more. paper's on railgun, and other fancy stuff has been published for decade, doesn't change the fact we still don't have railgun etc.

It really surprising for some one who claim engineer but discount or dismiss engineering paper as mathematics BS

Now as i understand it in order to study a system you need to have model to predict how a certain system behave under certain condition and that model is mathematical model. Now in some cases it is difficult to find a solution for certain equation and you need to simplify the model and approximate the model using Numerical solution and let the computer do the number crunching. Without it there is no progress in engineering It is the basic of engineering to design a new system.

All those impediment that you cited is nothing but red herring. It has been solved eon years ago. The civilian space faring and military missile have much in common.

As I remember China have successfully send and retrieve man from the space. Now I believe Shenzhou 8 have all kind of sensitive equipment yet they all survive the fiery reentry into atmosphere, They resume communication right after the black out and broadcast their where about for the ground crew

The system is so good that the ground crew knew exactly where they land and was there 3 minute after landing. Best of all the Astronaut are all in healthy condition when they land . Nothing is more fragile then human life

As far EW I don't know of EW so far a way in the space Never heard of it. Maybe Flash Gordon know about it Plus China might use multiple sensor to detect and guide the missile to its target SAR is almost resistant to any counter measure so do IIR Not counting various way to harden the signal or communication and data link .
like encrypting it , scrambling the signal, agile frequency, phase shifter So many way to fool the opponent! that electronic specialist eat for lunch
 
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Lion

Senior Member
Thanks for posting Lion. Are those missile test conducted unopposed? Is there any ECM present? Before you ask the US military practices against all sorts of obstacles..electronic and otherwise.

From the video, you can see chaff firing, part of the ECM practice, disruption and simulation of strong electronic defense and attack of enemies. Of course, I cannot be sure how strong the ELectronic magnetic environment. But they do take into account of current modern warfare of widespread use of electronic warfare. Just like how Aegis do their live firing.
 
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s002wjh

Junior Member
It really surprising for some one who claim engineer but discount or dismiss engineering paper as mathematics BS

Now as i understand it in order to study a system you need to have model to predict how a certain system behave under certain condition and that model is mathematical model. Now in some cases it is difficult to find a solution for certain equation and you need to simplify the model and approximate the model using Numerical solution and let the computer do the number crunching. Without it there is no progress in engineering It is the basic of engineering to design a new system.

All those impediment that you cited is nothing but red herring. It has been solved eon years ago. The civilian space faring and military missile have much in common.

As I remember China have successfully send and retrieve man from the space. Now I believe Shenzhou 8 have all kind of sensitive equipment yet they all survive the fiery reentry into atmosphere, They resume communication right after the black out and broadcast their where about for the ground crew

The system is so good that the ground crew knew exactly where they land and was there 3 minute after landing. Best of all the Astronaut are all in healthy condition when they land . Nothing is more fragile then human life

As far EW I don't know of EW so far a way in the space Never heard of it. Maybe Flash Gordon know about it Plus China might use multiple sensor to detect and guide the missile to its target SAR is almost resistant to any counter measure so do IIR Not counting various way to harden the signal or communication and data link .
like encrypting it , scrambling the signal, agile frequency, phase shifter So many way to fool the opponent! that electronic specialist eat for lunch

obvious you never Truly work in DSP, i work in the field for almost a decade, yes you can do freq hopping etc etc. but none of it matter if the spectrum is jam, and your SNR become too low or even negative due to additonal signal generate by enemy EW. any RF can be jam. also do you know the size/power/weight of such complex system? it take years and several large real-time processor just to run those algorithm. also the civilan equipment don't have to worry about active EW. in this case china need to find/track cvbg 1st, do mid-course correction before US shoot the satelite down, ID/track target in real time, you just don't get the complexity of this system in order for it to work under combat condition.

i'm not discount, i'm SAYING there is a big difference between conecept/theory on paper vs a REAL system, period. anyway i'm tire of this arguement base on your nationlism. unless you have decade of experience on this or a PHD on DSP/EE or prove of existing test etc. i'm not gonna argue on the same BS over and over again. for all i care you can claim china have plasma/laser/railgun weapon on their ship, because there are dozens paper on these topic before.
 
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Skywatcher

Captain
You think you are smart eh Now do this simple arithmetic Just before the missile reenter the atmosphere it receive the last update and adjust the flight path.Assuming that black out last 3 minute
Now assume again that it take 1 minute to be on the top of CBG about 100km above the sea

Travelling at mach 10-15 which is 12250Km/hr .So the travelling time is (100/(12250/60)) =0.5 minute to the CBG

Now how far can the CBG travel in 4.5 minute Let see at 30 knot which 35 mile/hr or 1/2 mile /min. That CBG can only travel 4.5X1/2 mile less than 3 mile. That is assuming that the missile drop straight into the CBG. If after coming out of the block out jettisoned the outer shield,Then engage their own onboard radar or other sensor(IIR) and make small adjustment(pre prgram) using micro thruster You think that is not possible for the missile to hit the CBG?. Gee some people doesn't know their own limitation but bragged as if they are expert

For Apollo missions, the communications blackout was approximately three minutes long.
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Well, gee are you sure you aren't some former Russian fanboi who converted? :D

The warhead can't engage its own sensors, not if it's traveling at Mach 10-15 (guess why?). Jettisoning the outer shell don't get rid of the plasma sheathing. So you won't be seeing anything in those last few minutes, regardless of all your w***ing.

At thirty knots, you're talking about an area of 72 square km in that 4.5 min window. A Nimitz carrier has an area of about 25,500 square meters. That means the Nimitz itself only takes up 0.03% of that area.
 

Skywatcher

Captain
As I remember China have successfully send and retrieve man from the space. Now I believe Shenzhou 8 have all kind of sensitive equipment yet they all survive the fiery reentry into atmosphere, They resume communication right after the black out and broadcast their where about for the ground crew

The system is so good that the ground crew knew exactly where they land and was there 3 minute after landing. Best of all the Astronaut are all in healthy condition when they land . Nothing is more fragile then human life

I really shouldn't, but the false equivalency here is just so rich.

The Shenzhou 8 has no problem communicating with the ground crew, because at that point, it's no longer moving at Mach 10-15 speeds.

Sure you could probably put a transmitter to communicate with C4ISR and sensors to find a carrier on the warhead, but they won't do your mission of hitting the carrier very much good if you've managed to slow down enough that plasma sheathing isn't an issue (at which you'll be descending through the ocean to the floor of the Pacific).

Just stick to using YJ-12 AShM (and whatever bigger brothers it will get later) armed strike aircraft escorted by J-20s. That actually works, and the general concept escorted bombers goes back to WWII. The 2nd Artillery might not like losing out the CVN hunting missions (and thus funding) to the PLAAF, but you can't make everyone happy all the time.

You don't happen to own stock in the DF-21 factory, do you? :eek:
 
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