Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

NikeX

Banned Idiot
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

And what do you mean by "modelling" one system after another? Is it the whole logistics chain? The arrangement of the actual missile launchers? rules of engagement? And if you think the chinese followed the russian system, just remember the sino soviet split. China didn't get any russian support until the break up of the USSR. Do you think in those decades Chinese IADS (as pitiful as it was compared to now) and their doctrine did not evolve independently at all?

What I mean is a system built on dense layers of interconnected radars and SAMs. That is the Russian model and has been exported to the former Warsaw pact, the middle east and China.

While China may not use EXACTLY the Russian concept, they base their ideas on the Russian idea of air defense

also, what does this even mean --> "However Syria had the Israeli air force to spar with."
They've had their backsides handed to them whenever they did encounter, are we saying syrian decision making is thus inherently a better decision maker than russia or china in IADS?? That's like saying the iraqis had the US and coalition forces to spar with during the first gulf war, thus the "experience" gained from that somehow improves its standing...

What is being said is that the Syrians have more real world experience fighting a first class opponent than the Chinese or the Russians. Combat experience counts over simulations and theories

And thanks for the reference of China using an aggressor - Red Flag type system

---------- Post added at 11:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 AM ----------

So because the chinese IADS hasn't proven itself in combat and we cannot make judgement on the human capability, we will assume it must be woefully deficient anyway?

The effectiveness of the Chinese IADS is unknown to anyone and that includes the Chinese. Remember Iraq thought they had an effective IADS until they got spanked during Desert Storm
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Well, these discussions about the various defensive and offensive systems will go on and on.

During which time, more and more countries, including the PRC, are building aircraft carriers...new modern ones, some CATOBAR, some STOBAR and some V/STOL and many of them multi-mission, as fast as they possibly can afford and manufacture them...at great cost in time and money.

It is clear that the military researchers and planners, the world over, believe that aircraft carriers are still the principle main stay in power projection and the defense of national interests on the high seas and on any land masses near those seas.

...and that is not changing anytime soon. So, the Carrier Age is not over...its actually entering its renaissance.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 
Last edited:

NikeX

Banned Idiot
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

They've actually had aggressor squadrons since the 90s.

One key component in aggressor training is the use of dissimilar aircraft to take the role of the opforce. Does China use that type of training?
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

One key component in aggressor training is the use of dissimilar aircraft to take the role of the opforce. Does China use that type of training?

They've used j-7e, j-10 to simulate f-16s I believe while MKKs are used to simulate F-15es and other. Sigh luring country's flankers. I expect j-11b would be used in a capacity to simulate the likes of F-15C and MKI
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

i think we already determine SM3 defense is probably the last defense layers in many. DF21 require other system to work properly, some those system, sub, satelite, OH radar etc can be jam/disable etc etc

as far as guam and other base in asia, it does not mean US will withdraw its force when its threaten by chinese missiles. china require Significant resource to Disable all US land bases in asia, include japan, SK, guam, etc. and china has to decide to lunch missile at US bases in japan/Skorea or not, it could escalte the war or pull Japan/Skorea into it. the amount of missiles required to disable a military base is quite abit. those missile has to penetrate PAC3 and other defense too, which mean china has to use even more missile to disable those bases, and thats only if china is doing the pre-emptive strike.

also J20 won't be in operation at least few years. we don't even know how many china will build or it just a tech demo.

and its not just cruise missile, but B2, and UAV, potentially stealth UAV. i doubt US will try to penetrate chinese air defense with it legacy jets. most likely US will use combination of stealth bomber, subs, UAV, F22 to disable key sensor system 1st. the alpha strike would be soften the capability of chinese sensors,C4,etc

Rand did some calculation as to how many missile are needed to shut off an airfield and found about 5 to 8 missile with submunition are sufficient . Now calculate how many bases are there in East Asia and multiply by 8 .China has 1500 short and medium range missile . Most of those airfields are not hardened. Chinese air force are spread out over large area and normally one airfield only housed 1 regiment There are at least 44 hardened air bases.
Don't forget to add hundreds of cruise missile, Stand off weapon, Smart bomb,Electronic warfare, cyber attack. It will overwhelmed any defense!

In any conflict over Taiwan, it is not certain that the opfor will have air superiority even with F22 Anyway without air superiority The submarine and UAV is hopeless case

NO SM3 is ony good for simple scud type missile it hasn't even proven that they can intercept maneuvering warhead or successful in decoy rich environment

Gen He Weirong said 2017 J-20 will be operational. It is not demonstrator as Bill Sweetman from Aviation week said or Dr Carlo Cops from NOTAM paper attested. Read the J-20 thread

This study come out in 2009 and ancient time to mark China defense progress
This article is just synopsis of much more elaborate monograph here it is for any one interested to read it
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Testimony on the same subject in front of economic security commission
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


RAND study: Now China wins Taiwan Straits air war

By
Stephen Trimble
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Nearly 10 years after a RAND study predicted the US side easily beats China in an air war over the Taiwan Straits, the think-tank has published a new monograph online today that reverses its former opinion.

Now, a People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) bristling with a newly acquired arsenal -- including Su-27 and J-10 fighters, AA-12 and PL-12 missiles, and short-range ballistic missiles -- defeats the US side. Moreover, the PLAAF defeats the US side with or without F-22s, with or without access to Kadena Air Base in Okinawa and with or without the participation of two US carrier battle groups, according to the monograph.

RAND's analysis "suggests that a credible case can be made that the air war for Taiwan could essentially be over before much of the Blue air force has even fired a shot. Threats to Blue air bases and a more evenly matched qualitiative balance combine to paint a very troubling picture."

Personally, I would be careful to trust any military analysis that states -- on two occasions -- the US Marine Corps flies F/A-18E/Fs (... er, no, not in this lifetme). But the overall facts in RAND's air war scenario appear very persuasive, at least to this observer.

In a war over Taiwan, China may think twice about striking sovereign Japanese territory on Okinawa, or sovereign US territory on Guam. But RAND's analysts are prudent to assume that the PLAAF's strategy would seek to maximize its chances of success in a battle over the future of Taiwan.

The scenario assumes a 27:1 kill ratio for the F-22, 4.5:1 kill ratio for the F-15 and a 2.6:1 kill ratio for carrier-based F/A-18E/Fs, which seems to reflect conventional wisdom. But that's not hardly enough. By striking Kadena and Taiwan air bases with missile attacks, the PLAAF can generate 3.7 times more sorties than the blue forces. On the first day, the PLAAF loses 241 jets compared to 147 jets for the Blue forces, including one F-22. But the PLAAF still dramatically outnumbers Blue forces and wins the war of attrition.

Interestingly, the new RAND monograph is not critical at all of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. Last year, John Stillon, a senior RAND analyst was fired after he put the think-tank in an awkward position. Stillon's presntation on the results of the Pacific Vision wargame, which were leaked to the press and posted on this blog, noted the F-35 "can't turn, can't climb and can't run". In the new study, RAND says "the F-22 and the still-to-come F-35 can expect to offer meaningful aircraft-on-aircraft technological advantages over what the PLAAF will bring to the fight".
 
Last edited:

IronsightSniper

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

The F-35 isn't actually a bad plane in any case. It does the job it was designed to do; everything while being stealthy at the same time. When you bundle all those sticks up, you're bound to get sticks that don't preform great in every job. But they preform those jobs, and they preform every job, so there's that.

In any case, at this rate of proliferation, China should be able to dominate Taiwan in any conflict within the next decade. They probably wouldn't get into one, though,
 

s002wjh

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Rand did some calculation as to how many missile are needed to shut off an airfield and found about 5 to 8 missile with submunition are sufficient . Now calculate how many bases are there in East Asia and multiply by 8 .China has 1500 short and medium range missile . Most of those airfields are not hardened. Chinese air force are spread out over large area and normally one airfield only housed 1 regiment There are at least 44 hardened air bases.
Don't forget to add hundreds of cruise missile, Stand off weapon, Smart bomb,Electronic warfare, cyber attack. It will overwhelmed any defense!

In any conflict over Taiwan, it is not certain that the opfor will have air superiority even with F22 Anyway without air superiority The submarine and UAV is hopeless case

NO SM3 is ony good for simple scud type missile it hasn't even proven that they can intercept maneuvering warhead or successful in decoy rich environment

Gen He Weirong said 2017 J-20 will be operational. It is not demonstrator as Bill Sweetman from Aviation week said or Dr Carlo Cops from NOTAM paper attested. Read the J-20 thread

This study come out in 2009 and ancient time to mark China defense progress
This article is just synopsis of much more elaborate monograph here it is for any one interested to read it
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Testimony on the same subject in front of economic security commission
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


RAND study: Now China wins Taiwan Straits air war

By
Stephen Trimble
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Nearly 10 years after a RAND study predicted the US side easily beats China in an air war over the Taiwan Straits, the think-tank has published a new monograph online today that reverses its former opinion.

Now, a People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) bristling with a newly acquired arsenal -- including Su-27 and J-10 fighters, AA-12 and PL-12 missiles, and short-range ballistic missiles -- defeats the US side. Moreover, the PLAAF defeats the US side with or without F-22s, with or without access to Kadena Air Base in Okinawa and with or without the participation of two US carrier battle groups, according to the monograph.

RAND's analysis "suggests that a credible case can be made that the air war for Taiwan could essentially be over before much of the Blue air force has even fired a shot. Threats to Blue air bases and a more evenly matched qualitiative balance combine to paint a very troubling picture."

Personally, I would be careful to trust any military analysis that states -- on two occasions -- the US Marine Corps flies F/A-18E/Fs (... er, no, not in this lifetme). But the overall facts in RAND's air war scenario appear very persuasive, at least to this observer.

In a war over Taiwan, China may think twice about striking sovereign Japanese territory on Okinawa, or sovereign US territory on Guam. But RAND's analysts are prudent to assume that the PLAAF's strategy would seek to maximize its chances of success in a battle over the future of Taiwan.

The scenario assumes a 27:1 kill ratio for the F-22, 4.5:1 kill ratio for the F-15 and a 2.6:1 kill ratio for carrier-based F/A-18E/Fs, which seems to reflect conventional wisdom. But that's not hardly enough. By striking Kadena and Taiwan air bases with missile attacks, the PLAAF can generate 3.7 times more sorties than the blue forces. On the first day, the PLAAF loses 241 jets compared to 147 jets for the Blue forces, including one F-22. But the PLAAF still dramatically outnumbers Blue forces and wins the war of attrition.

Interestingly, the new RAND monograph is not critical at all of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. Last year, John Stillon, a senior RAND analyst was fired after he put the think-tank in an awkward position. Stillon's presntation on the results of the Pacific Vision wargame, which were leaked to the press and posted on this blog, noted the F-35 "can't turn, can't climb and can't run". In the new study, RAND says "the F-22 and the still-to-come F-35 can expect to offer meaningful aircraft-on-aircraft technological advantages over what the PLAAF will bring to the fight".

i'm refer to pac3 and other type of anti-missile system. china has to lunch multiple missile to overwhelm defense in US bases, its not easy to accomplish this. this is not about taiwan, its about US base defense against missiles. a runway can be fix within 24hr, if its not totally destroyed.


it sound like your saying china can destroy US navy and air force with its CVBG, with its base, you really think this will happen. sure china acquire some new ability but overall its still lack behind US system, experience, and quantities. the only advantge china has is the war is gonna take place near china. but still in oceans hundred mile from china.

anyway we go on and on about counter and defense for long enough. china is not a push over but nor is US. to say china can stop US strike against chinese coastal facilities completly is really underestimate US ability to wage war.

if you belief china can defeat US with its J10, few J20, and some ballaist missile, then go ahead. but do a comparsion between US force vs chinese force require to defeat US navy. i don't know what RAND think when they say china is able to defeat US.

the only way china can win an airwar in taiwan is not allow US cvbg near taiwan, and force US jets fly far away from taiwan. if CVBG is able to get near then its over. china won't be able to invade taiwan or achieve air superioity. basically china has to keep US force away, far away.
 
Last edited:

advill

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Yes, I believe it is the PLA-N strategy to have the DF-21 D besides other options to keep away the CVBG from China & Taiwan's shores. I am sure there could be counter-strategies by the USN, if US changes its stance on non-interference. BTW, Can anyone enlighten me on the USN littoral ships suitable for shallow waters? Read that they would be deployed in SE Asian waters anytime soon.
 
Last edited:

escobar

Brigadier
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

i simply reply to your previous thread that china can "counter all of those". the tone sound like china has nothing to worry about.
i perfectly understand a war between US and China will be bloody if it escalte. however because both country know the risk, one will back down if they decide the risk/cost is too great.
Because it will be bloody if it escalate, they will not take the risk to go to war.

it won't be a piece cake to destroy/disable/jam coastal sensors, but its not impossible. the effectiveness of chinese defense agains US stealth plane, cruise missile, UAV simultaneouslly is not well know. but we already seen these US platform work in action, the defender may not be advance as chinese air defense but least we know US capabilities after the kosvo,iraq war etc.
Destroy physicaly target directly on china soil means that US "give" the excuse to china to retaliate on CONUS.
It is a very bad idea. No we don't know US capabilities against a near-peer. And frankly saying irak and kosovo had an "Air Defens" is a joke.
 
Top