Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

well to be honest i don't know, wouldnt they work in the same way? or do you mean the armour piercing HE like an arty HE shell?
i imagined it will be inefficient to employ an effective EFP as large as a DF-21 sized ballistic missile, and will produce a smaller damage cross section
in another hand, a hardened tipped (think bunker buster + kinetic penetrator) with explosives might be better

Yes, when I said armour piercing HE, I should have said kinetic penetrator + HE. KE + HE to me would seem the logical choice, that is let loose two tons worth of explosives once the warhead is in the carrier's soft core. Such an explosion could do serious structural harm and create a mess of things inside. the attraction for me of EFP would be that it can cut a deep hole all the way through the carrier potentially all the way out to water, while causing some "area of effect" damage of its own (see pics of successful EFP hits on the inside of a tank).
though I suppose EFP is better suited for actually penetrating the armour and killing the crew of an enclosed box rather than the complexity of a ship. A mach 10 unitary warhead, penetrator or not would be able to go through a carrier's armour without much trouble in the first place so EFP won't be needed? Hmm
 

paintgun

Senior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

^^all left to do is the math
whistle.gif
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Let's get real here. How many USAF bases are there with fighters that can reach china? How many of them would still be operable in event of a conflict, factoring in use of PLA long range cruise missiles and conventional IRBMs?

Then factor in the fact PLAAF will have its own SIGINT, EW, AWACS, and CAP in addition to its IADS, try to get SIGINT/EW aircraft with what fighters you can scrape from westpac bases for the perfectly executed attack you have in mind.

Modern IADS are also much more mobile than the SA-2s and SA-6s of the eighties, let's get real here. You'll be dealing with the likes of mobile S-300PMU/PMU-2, HQ-9 and HQ-16 on top of the less capable HQ-12 and HQ-2s.

I guess every country who's spent money on IADS have invested in the wrong weapon then, because simply turning on a radar will result in its mapping and the IADS's destruction apparently... lol

good retort.Exactly modern SAM can shoot and scoot in 15 minute. Anyway Bekka valley is ancient history. Why not see how the western air force fare against the Serbian in 1999 Well according to this report not so good out of 25 SAM site only 2 are destroyed.Even though the Serbian never had anything decent radars against the modern air force of the west.Their most modern SAM is SA6 product of 1970. No modern jamming system. No cyber warfare

The Balance Sheet for Kosovo
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In the end, as noted above, enemy SAM fire brought down only two aircraft (both American), thanks to allied reliance on electronic jamming, towed decoys, and countertactics to negate enemy surface-to-air defenses.37 However, NATO never fully succeeded in neutralizing the Serb IADS, and NATO aircraft operating over Serbia and Kosovo were always within the engagement envelopes of enemy SA-3 and SA-6 missiles—envelopes that extended as high as 50,000 feet. Because of that persistent threat, mission planners had to place such high-value surveillance-and-reconnaissance platforms as the U-2 and JSTARS in less-than-ideal orbits to keep them outside the lethal reach of enemy SAMs. Even during the operation’s final week, NATO spokesmen conceded that they could confirm the destruction of only three of Serbia’s approximately 25 known mobile SA-6 batteries.38

In all events, by remaining dispersed and mobile, and by activating their radars only selectively, the Serb IADS operators yielded the short-term tactical initiative in order to pre-sent a longer-term operational and strategic challenge to allied combat sorties. The downside of that inactivity for NATO was that opportunities to employ the classic Wild Weasel tactic of attacking enemy SAM radars with HARMs while SAMs guided on airborne targets were “few and far between.”39 Lt Gen Michael Short, the Allied Force air commander, later indicated that his aircrews were ready for a wall-to-wall SAM threat like the one encountered over Iraq during Desert Storm but that “it just never materialized. And then it began to dawn on us that . . . they were going to try to survive as opposed to being willing to die to shoot down an airplane.”40

One may also explain the dearth of enemy radar-guided SAM activity, at least in part, by reports that the Air Force’s Air Combat Command had conducted information operations by inserting viruses and deceptive communications into the enemy’s computer system and microwave net.41 Although US information operators probably could not insert malicious code into enemy SAM radars themselves, General Jumper later confirmed that Allied Force had seen the first use of offensive computer warfare as a precision weapon in connection with broader US information operations against enemy defenses. As he put it, “We did more information warfare in this conflict than we have ever done before, and we proved the potential of it.”42

During Desert Storm, by means of computer penetration, high-speed decrypting algorithms, and taps on landlines passing through friendly countries, the United States reportedly intercepted and monitored Iraqi E-mail and digitized messages but engaged in no manipulation of enemy computers. During Allied Force, however, information operators allegedly succeeded in putting false targets into the enemy’s air defense computers to match what enemy controllers were predisposed to believe. Such activities also supposedly occasioned the classic operator-versus-intelligence conundrum from time to time, in which intelligence collectors sought to preserve enemy threat systems that provided them with streams of information while operators sought to attack and negate them in order to protect allied aircrews.43

All of this raised basic questions about the adequacy of US SEAD tactics, suggesting a need for better real-time intelligence on mobile enemy SAMs. We not only needed to get that information to pilots quickly enough for them to act on it, but also needed to give them greater standoff-attack capability. The downings of the F-117 and F-16 were both attributed to breakdowns in procedures aimed at detecting enemy IADS threats in a timely manner and ensuring that pilots did not fly into lethal SAM envelopes unaware of them. Other factors cited in the two downings included poor mission planning and improper use of available technology. Although far fewer aircraft were lost during Allied Force than expected, these instances pointed up some systemic problems in need of fixing.
 

s002wjh

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

you are not getting it. it is not about china ability or inability "to shoot down all the cruise missile, evade and destroy all the US sub in the area, detect and destroy all the B2,F22,and UAV etc etc" or the loss or not of "some ships and planes by US" like you have said. It is about the devastation that will occur in the two camps. It seems to me that you are not viewing the whole implication of a such confrontation. It will not be similar to any war we have seen in the past 4 or 5 decades. It will be a real bloody war. If you think it will be an "easy job" to one side then you are mistaken completely.
if you want to have a winner then ok: you may have a tactical/strategical winner. But what will be its state(economy, social, etc...)??

i simply reply to your previous thread that china can "counter all of those". the tone sound like china has nothing to worry about.
i perfectly understand a war between US and China will be bloody if it escalte. however because both country know the risk, one will back down if they decide the risk/cost is too great.

it won't be a piece cake to destroy/disable/jam coastal sensors, but its not impossible. the effectiveness of chinese defense agains US stealth plane, cruise missile, UAV simultaneouslly is not well know. but we already seen these US platform work in action, the defender may not be advance as chinese air defense but least we know US capabilities after the kosvo,iraq war etc.

---------- Post added at 11:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 AM ----------

Well any one who think it is easy to penetrate Chinese IADS should read this excellent paper by NOTAM, the only system that is possibly can penetrate IADS is F22 . but they are not available in large number and it is now questionable in light of Chinese advance like J20. This article is from 2009. All those PGM from Submarine will unlikely survive high dense point systems and China has more than thousand of legacy SA2 that is now being modernized and couple with AESA radar H200 will provide formidable air defense.Once those submarine launch the cruises missile they will revealed their location and will be hunted by Anti submarine patrol aircraft. This is long article I don't want to waste bandwidth. All those UAV and UCAV will be jammed . The recent hijack of US UCAV by Iran is proof

Strategic Impact of IADS Evolution
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The United States and its Allies have relied since the end of the Cold War upon the ability to quickly overwhelm an opposing IADS, and the ability to then deliver massed precision firepower from the air, as the weapon of choice in resolving nation state conflicts.

The reality of evolving IADS technology and its global proliferation is that most of the US Air Force combat aircraft fleet, and all of the US Navy combat aircraft fleet, will be largely impotent against an IADS constructed from the technology available today from Russian and, increasingly so, Chinese manufacturers. If flown against such an IADS, US legacy fighters from the F-15 through to the current production F/A-18E/F would suffer prohibitive combat losses attempting to penetrate, suppress or destroy such an IADS

The IADS technology in question is currently being deployed by China, Iran, Venezuela, and other nations, most of which have poor relationships with the Western alliance.


Until the US Air Force deploys significant numbers of the intended New Generation Bomber post 2020, only aircraft types in the US arsenal will be capable of penetrating, suppressing and destroying such an IADS – the B-2A Spirit and the F-22A Raptor.

Cruise missile bombardment from standoff ranges is often presented as an alternative to crewed combat aircraft delivering precision bombs. The difficulty, identified earlier, with cruise missile bombardment is that it is most effective against fixed targets, and improving point defence capabilities present a genuine risk that a sizeable proportion of cruise missiles sortied will be shot down as they close on their targets. Another consideration is the aggregate cost of such bombardment, since cruise missiles are still at least an order of magnitude more expensive than guided bombs, making the sustained delivery of thousands of rounds difficult to sustain by production, and fiscally [56].

Stealthy Uninhabited Combat Aerial Systems (UCAS/UCAV) have also been proposed, specifically for SEAD/DEAD and fixed target strike operations. This technology presents as a better choice than cruise missiles, for economic reasons and the potential for a UCAV to saturate terminal defences with multiple SDBs. While a credible airframe with adequate stealth performance is feasible in the near term, the X-47B presenting as a good example, the remaining components required for a credible capability remain immature, risky and in many respects, problematic. The required range and loiter endurance will require an aerial refuelling capability for the uncrewed system. Satellite downlinks from the vehicle, and line of sight datalinks, will be jammed by an opponent, forcing heavy reliance on autonomous onboard artificial intelligence, and organic ISR capabilities on the vehicle itself, if anything beyond fixed infrastructure targets are to be attacked [57].

The only low risk technological strategy available to the US in the 2010 – 2020 timeframe is exploitation of existing stealth technology designs, which are as noted earlier, only the F-22A Raptor and B-2A Spirit [58], [59], [v].

There are only twenty B-2As in existence and retooling to manufacture a B-2C is an expensive approach given the commitment to the New Generation Bomber [60].

The United States therefore has only one remaining strategic choice at this time. That strategic choice is to manufacture a sufficient number of F-22A Raptors to provide a credible capability to conduct a substantial air campaign using only the B-2A and F-22A fleets.

The expectation that the US can get by with a small “golden bullet” fleet of stealth aircraft to carve holes in IADS to permit legacy aircraft to attack is no longer credible. The difficulty in locating and killing the new generation of self propelled and highly survivable IADS radars and launchers presents the prospect of a replay of the 1999 OAF campaign, with highly lethal SAM systems waiting in ambush, and mostly evading SEAD/DEAD attacks.

The F-22A Raptor will therefore have to perform the full spectrum of penetrating roles, starting with counter-air, and encompassing SEAD/DEAD, penetrating ISR and precision strike against strategic and tactical targets. The B-2A fleet can robustly bolster capabilities, but the small number of these superb aircraft available will result inevitably in very selective use.

How many F-22A Raptors is enough to meet this capability benchmark? If we assume an aircraft configuration reflecting the planned F-22A Block 40 configuration, and we assume a contingency of similar magnitude to Desert Storm, then the required number of F-22A aircraft to cover the spectrum of penetrating roles is of the order of 500 to 600 aircraft [61], [62].

the objective of US in a conflict SCS or taiwan is push china to back off. so mainly secure the ocean around SCS or taiwan. i doubt US will do any deep strike against chinese target on mainland other than some the support sensor for DF21 so the CVBG can sail to safer area. its likely US will send in its stealth plane wheather B2, F22 or stealth UAV or cruise missiles. and these will be lunch around same time for maxium affect.

as far as detecting stealth etc, no one know how well it work or not. not much information is given. we can only estimate the attack & counter with known data. not base on paper published by someguy without information from simulation or demonstration etc.
 

NikeX

Banned Idiot
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Enlighten me. Are you trying to make a comparision between an "hypothetical IADS" from a country like syria and one of the best IADS in
the world from china???

How do you know China has one of the "best IADS in the world"? I am curious how you are making this comparison. What you post are mainly opinions based upon what you and other commentators believe to be true.

But in the world of reality what OBJECTIVE measurement can you cite or point to where there has been measurement of this IADS against world standards?

Are there any?


Another flawed logic. Because it has never been tested against a real ennemy does mean that it will be ineffective in a real war???

What is wrong about pointing out the flaws in an untested system? I ask would you board an untested airliner on its first flight across the Pacific ocean?

I know I wouldn't

The point is that this IADS you have such faith in has never been tested and will never be tested until the shooting starting. Even stealth was an untried concept before Operation Desert Storm.

Do you remember how they tried to test stealth (F-117) in the invasion of Panama to gain operational experience? That first test showed weaknesses that had not been detected before Panama.

Stealth's Panama Mission Reported Marred by Error - New York Times
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And those weaknesses had to be corrected before they went against the IADS of Iraq. In spite of years of testing and countless simulations the F-117 was still found lacking when it was used against a very weak enemy Panama
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

the objective of US in a conflict SCS or taiwan is push china to back off. so mainly secure the ocean around SCS or taiwan. i doubt US will do any deep strike against chinese target on mainland other than some the support sensor for DF21 so the CVBG can sail to safer area. its likely US will send in its stealth plane wheather B2, F22 or stealth UAV or cruise missiles. and these will be lunch around same time for maxium affect.

as far as detecting stealth etc, no one know how well it work or not. not much information is given. we can only estimate the attack & counter with known data. not base on paper published by someguy without information from simulation or demonstration etc.

Those ASBM will be mobile they will be hidden in cave and tunnel and only come out to shoot then within 15 minute scoot back to their hiding place .Within 5 years, Guam based F22 movement, will be restricted. Because their support system of Tanker and AWACS will be vulnerable to Chinese J20. The legacy fighter is hopeless since their bases is within the strike radius of Chinese short range missile. The most dangerous strike facing China is submarine launch cruise missile .Well they have to take the pounding and hope the IADS will somehow lessen the impact
It is not simulation but educated estimate based on the lesson learned from the latest conflict . RAND did simulation and they come to the same conclusion
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escobar

Brigadier
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

How do you know China has one of the "best IADS in the world"? I am curious how you are making this comparison. What you post are mainly opinions based upon what you and other commentators believe to be true.
best in term of:
-quantity: hundred of long range SAM and i don't count medium and short range system
-quality: world class SAM such S-300PMU1/PMU2, HQ-9
-Ability to produce indigenous SAM so you could have your own radar to reduce risk of EW and dependance on foreign system
-Ability to produce more SAM if a war broke out;
Syria had none of this.

But in the world of reality what OBJECTIVE measurement can you cite or point to where there has been measurement of this IADS against world standards?
You measure that through complex exercices under EW conditions.You tested it again and again.
Sure it is not like in a real war but you know your system is working to a certain level and you declare it operational. Most military system works like that.
What is wrong about pointing out the flaws in an untested system? I ask would you board an untested airliner on its first flight across the Pacific ocean?

I know I wouldn't

The point is that this IADS you have such faith in has never been tested and will never be tested until the shooting starting. Even stealth was an untried concept before Operation Desert Storm.

Do you remember how they tried to test stealth (F-117) in the invasion of Panama to gain operational experience? That first test showed weaknesses that had not been detected before Panama.

Stealth's Panama Mission Reported Marred by Error - New York Times
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And those weaknesses had to be corrected before they went against the IADS of Iraq. In spite of years of testing and countless simulations the F-117 was still found lacking when it was used against a very weak enemy Panama
the system doe not need to be prefect 100%. It have to work to a certain point.
Your f-117 work to a certain point and they fixed the weakness they detected. That is what i'am saying.
let me put it that way: The F-22 has never tested in a real war. Does this mean that in a real war the F-22 " with all his
imperfections
" could not destroy some ennemy plane ?
 

NikeX

Banned Idiot
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

best in term of:
-quantity: hundred of long range SAM and i don't count medium and short range system
-quality: world class SAM such S-300PMU1/PMU2, HQ-9
-Ability to produce indigenous SAM so you could have your own radar to reduce risk of EW and dependance on foreign system
-Ability to produce more SAM if a war broke out;
Syria had none of this.

However Syria had the Israeli air force to spar with. The Israelis are among the most innovative in tactics and systems.

I don't have to tell you that Israeli pilots are some of the best in the world

Syria wasn't as good as the Israelis but compared to the other Arab forces in the region they were among the best.

The Syrian IADS was modeled on the Russian system. China has modeled its system in the same way.

Its the human factor that causes the question mark about the Chinese IADS. Its not the raw power of the equipment that is being questioned. The Chinese SAMs are probably very good. But it is the man looking at the screens and making the decisions that have to carry the load. And that man is experienced in Syria because the Israelis have kicked Syria's behind so many times they have had to learn something. China cannot make that claim.


You measure that through complex exercices under EW conditions.You tested it again and again.
Sure it is not like in a real war but you know your system is working to a certain level and you declare it operational. Most military system works like that.

But what is the yardstick are you measuring against? Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think China even has something like Red Flag to train their people.

the system doe not need to be prefect 100%. It have to work to a certain point.
Your f-117 work to a certain point and they fixed the weakness they detected. That is what i'am saying.
let me put it that way: The F-22 has never tested in a real war. Does this mean that in a real war the F-22 " with all his
imperfections
" could not destroy some ennemy plane ?

F-22 is based upon the lessons learned in several air wars. More importantly there are valuable lessons the aircrews have learned, the hard way, that they are passing down to student pilots. The pilots come back from these air battles and share that knowledge with others. That is the reality.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

However Syria had the Israeli air force to spar with. The Israelis are among the most innovative in tactics and systems.

I don't have to tell you that Israeli pilots are some of the best in the world

Syria wasn't as good as the Israelis but compared to the other Arab forces in the region they were among the best.

The Syrian IADS was modeled on the Russian system. China has modeled its system in the same way.

Whether the chinese IADS was ever based on the russian system, or whether it currently is does not justify a comparison of IAF vs Syrian 80s IADS vs US air power vs PLA air power + IADS.

And what do you mean by "modelling" one system after another? Is it the whole logistics chain? The arrangement of the actual missile launchers? rules of engagement? And if you think the chinese followed the russian system, just remember the sino soviet split. China didn't get any russian support until the break up of the USSR. Do you think in those decades Chinese IADS (as pitiful as it was compared to now) and their doctrine did not evolve independently at all?

I repeat, comparing the IAF vs Syrian IADS of the 80s is irrelevant to the discussion of going against the PLA's IADS (which aside from the SAMs themselves will be made up of the PLAAF's aerial assets as well).


also, what does this even mean --> "However Syria had the Israeli air force to spar with."
They've had their backsides handed to them whenever they did encounter, are we saying syrian decision making is thus inherently a better decision maker than russia or china in IADS?? That's like saying the iraqis had the US and coalition forces to spar with during the first gulf war, thus the "experience" gained from that somehow improves its standing...


Its the human factor that causes the question mark about the Chinese IADS. Its not the raw power of the equipment that is being questioned. The Chinese SAMs are probably very good. But it is the man looking at the screens and making the decisions that have to carry the load. And that man is experienced in Syria because the Israelis have kicked Syria's behind so many times they have had to learn something. China cannot make that claim.

So because the chinese IADS hasn't proven itself in combat and we cannot make judgement on the human capability, we will assume it must be woefully deficient anyway?


But what is the yardstick are you measuring against? Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think China even has something like Red Flag to train their people.

Corrected.

They've actually had aggressor squadrons since the 90s.

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s002wjh

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Those ASBM will be mobile they will be hidden in cave and tunnel and only come out to shoot then within 15 minute scoot back to their hiding place .Within 5 years, Guam based F22 movement, will be restricted. Because their support system of Tanker and AWACS will be vulnerable to Chinese J20. The legacy fighter is hopeless since their bases is within the strike radius of Chinese short range missile. The most dangerous strike facing China is submarine launch cruise missile .Well they have to take the pounding and hope the IADS will somehow lessen the impact
It is not simulation but educated estimate based on the lesson learned from the latest conflict . RAND did simulation and they come to the same conclusion
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i think we already determine SM3 defense is probably the last defense layers in many. DF21 require other system to work properly, some those system, sub, satelite, OH radar etc can be jam/disable etc etc

as far as guam and other base in asia, it does not mean US will withdraw its force when its threaten by chinese missiles. china require Significant resource to Disable all US land bases in asia, include japan, SK, guam, etc. and china has to decide to lunch missile at US bases in japan/Skorea or not, it could escalte the war or pull Japan/Skorea into it. the amount of missiles required to disable a military base is quite abit. those missile has to penetrate PAC3 and other defense too, which mean china has to use even more missile to disable those bases, and thats only if china is doing the pre-emptive strike.

also J20 won't be in operation at least few years. we don't even know how many china will build or it just a tech demo.

and its not just cruise missile, but B2, and UAV, potentially stealth UAV. i doubt US will try to penetrate chinese air defense with it legacy jets. most likely US will use combination of stealth bomber, subs, UAV, F22 to disable key sensor system 1st. the alpha strike would be soften the capability of chinese sensors,C4,etc
 
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