Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

It will produce lot of damage but i don't think it could sink a 100k carrier.
Sink big ship is not easy.

I did say "could"" -- saying it's possible, if circumstances are right.
Dive bombers of WWII were perfectly capable of sinking carriers, and that was with smaller bombs being flung at much slower velocities than what DF-21D's terminal velocity is expected to be. If a DF-21D warhead hit home, there's no reason it couldn't sink the carrier -- remember the process of sinking could take hours, if not days. It doesn't have to be damage sustained at once. If the warhead causes secondary explosions through the hangar by detonating fuel laden planes and/or bombs the carrier's survivability will be lowered by that much again.
 

escobar

Brigadier
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

I did say "could"" -- saying it's possible, if circumstances are right.
Dive bombers of WWII were perfectly capable of sinking carriers, and that was with smaller bombs being flung at much slower velocities than what DF-21D's terminal velocity is expected to be. If a DF-21D warhead hit home, there's no reason it couldn't sink the carrier -- remember the process of sinking could take hours, if not days. It doesn't have to be damage sustained at once. If the warhead causes secondary explosions through the hangar by detonating fuel laden planes and/or bombs the carrier's survivability will be lowered by that much again.

Sorry, i missed it. Agree now

---------- Post added at 11:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:29 PM ----------

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

INTEGRATED AIR DEFENSES
Hendrik_2000 the link is not working. What is behind the asterix??
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Sorry, i missed it. Agree now

---------- Post added at 11:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:29 PM ----------


Hendrik_2000 the link is not working. What is behind the asterix??

It comes from Pakdefense forum I guess they mask the URL. But I get you the original site here it is Everybody say R Fisher is warmonger but see how prescient he is when forecasting China capability. At that time we don't have proof of those capabilities he is talking about, Only now we have pictures which I add it from CDF

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

s002wjh

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Indeed -- but soo2wjh's idea/tone that such attempts to degrade the C4I, sensor systems etc would go unopposed is the point of dispute.



Yes -- and to degrade other components, they will either have to risk more (smaller) assets like aircraft, destroyers/cruisers, SSNs whose success is not guaranteed either, and/or use ASAT weapons, any act upon which will be considered an act of war.
The only real flashpoint which AShBM will make an effect in the near future imo is taiwan, and/or maybe a SCS dispute but mostly taiwan because the US has that written agreement about defending it. DF-21D is a gambit to threaten the major power projection tools (not to mention thousands of lives aboard one ship) of the US, so if there is a repeat of the third taiwan crisis the US must think carefully about whether it, and its public wants to sustain potential losses for intervention -- and hopefully back off, without a shot being fired between the US and China.

If we're talking about a no holding back, all out war type scenario then everybody loses -- and that can erupt from a future taiwan crisis, which DF-21D can avoid. Isn't it kind of funny, that USN carriers were used in previous taiwan strait crises to "deter" china from making "aggression"... yet today and in the near future DF-21D will be used by China to "deter" USN carriers from future taiwan/regional crises to prevent "aggression" from said carriers... And if either side in either scenarios acted to make the other side use their deterrence, it would result in them theoretically sustaining hard to accept losses (chinese cities vs a few usn carriers).

i never say will be easy. but due to US experience in sub warfare, quality of military system, quantity of those system, and experience, these factors increase the chance to disable enemy C4's.

US can send subs, UAV and other platforms to scout 1st, search and destroy potential enemy subs or coastal OH radar and other targets near coast with sub-fired cruise missiles or with B2 or other platform such as UAV. of course its not easy task, but i think most people agrees if anyone can acheive this task, it will be the combine force of US military, navy, airforce, cyber, etc etc. once the defense in coastal, and area of interest are soften, then US can sail its CVBG to a safer area for further soften the defense.

if its done right, then it will reduce the threat significantly, which make follow through attack from other platform easier.
 
Last edited:

escobar

Brigadier
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

i never say will be easy. but due to US experience in sub warfare, quality of military system, quantity of those system, and experience, these factors increase the chance to disable enemy C4's.

US can send subs, UAV and other platforms to scout 1st, search and destroy potential enemy subs or coastal OH radar and other targets near coast with sub-fired cruise missiles or with B2 or other platform such as UAV. of course its not easy task, but i think most people agrees if anyone can acheive this task, it will be the combine force of US military, navy, airforce, cyber, etc etc. once the defense in coastal, and area of interest are soften, then US can sail its CVBG to a safer area for further soften the defense.

if its done right, then it will reduce the threat significantly, which make follow through attack from other platform easier.

And china have the ability to counter all those things you have listed.
So you have said nothing new.
 

NikeX

Banned Idiot
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

And china have the ability to counter all those things you have listed.
So you have said nothing new.

And all that has been advanced is theory. To disrupt the complex kill chain of the ASBM promotes failure. Break one link of that complex kill chain and the ASBM is rendered ineffective. This is the weak point of the whole discussion. In order for the DF-21 to succeed every thing must go right and be on time. In other words the DF-21 weapons system must perform perfectly

This rarely if ever happens in real life.
 

s002wjh

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

And china have the ability to counter all those things you have listed.
So you have said nothing new.

right china can shoot down all the cruise missile, evade and destroy all the US sub in the area, detect and destroy all the B2,F22,and UAV etc etc.

china ability to counter US force and protect its own OH radar, C4 near the coast is not 100%. it has some capability to counter US attack against its large coastal facility, and subs, but it can't stop all US attack. just like taiwan PAC3 can't stop all chinese missile.

there are bound to have some missiles, stealth plane, subs, UAV to slip through the sensor or be overwhelm by US force. remember we are not talking about few subs, and few missiles, but the entire combine force of US against chinese coastal sensor, subs etc, the weakes link.

if US decide to attack, it will be a multi-direction coordinate simultaneously attack, which is the most effect way to soften enemy sensor or df21 systems etc etc.
 
Last edited:

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

right china can shoot down all the cruise missile, evade and destroy all the US sub in the area, detect and destroy all the B2,F22,and UAV etc etc.

Well any one who think it is easy to penetrate Chinese IADS should read this excellent paper by NOTAM, the only system that is possibly can penetrate IADS is F22 . but they are not available in large number and it is now questionable in light of Chinese advance like J20. This article is from 2009. All those PGM from Submarine will unlikely survive high dense point systems and China has more than thousand of legacy SA2 that is now being modernized and couple with AESA radar H200 will provide formidable air defense.Once those submarine launch the cruises missile they will revealed their location and will be hunted by Anti submarine patrol aircraft. This is long article I don't want to waste bandwidth. All those UAV and UCAV will be jammed . The recent hijack of US UCAV by Iran is proof

Strategic Impact of IADS Evolution
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The United States and its Allies have relied since the end of the Cold War upon the ability to quickly overwhelm an opposing IADS, and the ability to then deliver massed precision firepower from the air, as the weapon of choice in resolving nation state conflicts.

The reality of evolving IADS technology and its global proliferation is that most of the US Air Force combat aircraft fleet, and all of the US Navy combat aircraft fleet, will be largely impotent against an IADS constructed from the technology available today from Russian and, increasingly so, Chinese manufacturers. If flown against such an IADS, US legacy fighters from the F-15 through to the current production F/A-18E/F would suffer prohibitive combat losses attempting to penetrate, suppress or destroy such an IADS

The IADS technology in question is currently being deployed by China, Iran, Venezuela, and other nations, most of which have poor relationships with the Western alliance.


Until the US Air Force deploys significant numbers of the intended New Generation Bomber post 2020, only aircraft types in the US arsenal will be capable of penetrating, suppressing and destroying such an IADS – the B-2A Spirit and the F-22A Raptor.

Cruise missile bombardment from standoff ranges is often presented as an alternative to crewed combat aircraft delivering precision bombs. The difficulty, identified earlier, with cruise missile bombardment is that it is most effective against fixed targets, and improving point defence capabilities present a genuine risk that a sizeable proportion of cruise missiles sortied will be shot down as they close on their targets. Another consideration is the aggregate cost of such bombardment, since cruise missiles are still at least an order of magnitude more expensive than guided bombs, making the sustained delivery of thousands of rounds difficult to sustain by production, and fiscally [56].

Stealthy Uninhabited Combat Aerial Systems (UCAS/UCAV) have also been proposed, specifically for SEAD/DEAD and fixed target strike operations. This technology presents as a better choice than cruise missiles, for economic reasons and the potential for a UCAV to saturate terminal defences with multiple SDBs. While a credible airframe with adequate stealth performance is feasible in the near term, the X-47B presenting as a good example, the remaining components required for a credible capability remain immature, risky and in many respects, problematic. The required range and loiter endurance will require an aerial refuelling capability for the uncrewed system. Satellite downlinks from the vehicle, and line of sight datalinks, will be jammed by an opponent, forcing heavy reliance on autonomous onboard artificial intelligence, and organic ISR capabilities on the vehicle itself, if anything beyond fixed infrastructure targets are to be attacked [57].

The only low risk technological strategy available to the US in the 2010 – 2020 timeframe is exploitation of existing stealth technology designs, which are as noted earlier, only the F-22A Raptor and B-2A Spirit [58], [59], [v].

There are only twenty B-2As in existence and retooling to manufacture a B-2C is an expensive approach given the commitment to the New Generation Bomber [60].

The United States therefore has only one remaining strategic choice at this time. That strategic choice is to manufacture a sufficient number of F-22A Raptors to provide a credible capability to conduct a substantial air campaign using only the B-2A and F-22A fleets.

The expectation that the US can get by with a small “golden bullet” fleet of stealth aircraft to carve holes in IADS to permit legacy aircraft to attack is no longer credible. The difficulty in locating and killing the new generation of self propelled and highly survivable IADS radars and launchers presents the prospect of a replay of the 1999 OAF campaign, with highly lethal SAM systems waiting in ambush, and mostly evading SEAD/DEAD attacks.

The F-22A Raptor will therefore have to perform the full spectrum of penetrating roles, starting with counter-air, and encompassing SEAD/DEAD, penetrating ISR and precision strike against strategic and tactical targets. The B-2A fleet can robustly bolster capabilities, but the small number of these superb aircraft available will result inevitably in very selective use.

How many F-22A Raptors is enough to meet this capability benchmark? If we assume an aircraft configuration reflecting the planned F-22A Block 40 configuration, and we assume a contingency of similar magnitude to Desert Storm, then the required number of F-22A aircraft to cover the spectrum of penetrating roles is of the order of 500 to 600 aircraft [61], [62].
 
Last edited:

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

And all that has been advanced is theory. To disrupt the complex kill chain of the ASBM promotes failure. Break one link of that complex kill chain and the ASBM is rendered ineffective. This is the weak point of the whole discussion. In order for the DF-21 to succeed every thing must go right and be on time. In other words the DF-21 weapons system must perform perfectly

This rarely if ever happens in real life.

Sigh see the post I made a few days ago. It's satellite and/or OTH and/or sonar and/or submarines and/or ships and/or UAV and/or mpa and/or fishing boats ---> transmission of data ---> DF-21D launch. Destroying one system or even a whole type of systems won't necessarily make the weapon unable to fire. There are weak points in the AShBM's kill chain; losing all the satellites will be worse than losing all the MPAs, but in terms of the sensors, they all can cover one another's roles to an extent so they offer redundancy. I'm pretty sure we've been through this.
 

escobar

Brigadier
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

right china can shoot down all the cruise missile, evade and destroy all the US sub in the area, detect and destroy all the B2,F22,and UAV etc etc.

china ability to counter US force and protect its own OH radar, C4 near the coast is not 100%. it has some capability to counter US attack against its large coastal facility, and subs, but it can't stop all US attack. just like taiwan PAC3 can't stop all chinese missile.

there are bound to have some missiles, stealth plane, subs, UAV to slip through the sensor or be overwhelm by US force. remember we are not talking about few subs, and few missiles, but the entire combine force of US against chinese coastal sensor, subs etc, the weakes link.

if US decide to attack, it will be a multi-direction coordinate simultaneously attack, which is the most effect way to soften enemy sensor or df21 systems etc etc.

you are not getting it. it is not about china ability or inability "to shoot down all the cruise missile, evade and destroy all the US sub in the area, detect and destroy all the B2,F22,and UAV etc etc" or the loss or not of "some ships and planes by US" like you have said. It is about the devastation that will occur in the two camps. It seems to me that you are not viewing the whole implication of a such confrontation. It will not be similar to any war we have seen in the past 4 or 5 decades. It will be a real bloody war. If you think it will be an "easy job" to one side then you are mistaken completely.
if you want to have a winner then ok: you may have a tactical/strategical winner. But what will be its state(economy, social, etc...)??
 
Top