Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

advill

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Tks Escobar for your post on Adm Mullen & Gen Chen. Some good overview of their thinking ...... including snides. Very Useful for US & China to continue with the dialogue, i.e. to agree as well as, to agree to disagree on military issues.
 

NikeX

Banned Idiot
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

put imagery sat into geosynchronous orbit??

Now you are getting it. Geosynchronous orbit for a real time video imagery satellite. A first. It will sit there up high and just stare.

".....MOIRE would be a geosynchronous orbital system that uses a huge but lightweight membrane optic....Public Intelligence reports that such a telescope should be able to spot missile launcher vehicles moving at speeds of up to 60 mph on the ground, according to a DARPA contract. That would also require the image resolution to see objects less than 10 feet (3 m) long within a single image pixel...."
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Now you are getting it. Geosynchronous orbit for a real time video imagery satellite. A first. It will sit there up high and just stare.

".....MOIRE would be a geosynchronous orbital system that uses a huge but lightweight membrane optic....Public Intelligence reports that such a telescope should be able to spot missile launcher vehicles moving at speeds of up to 60 mph on the ground, according to a DARPA contract. That would also require the image resolution to see objects less than 10 feet (3 m) long within a single image pixel...."

Well the better I guess because somewhere in Chinese lab somebody is doing exactly the same research because the scientific principle is publicly available. Now imagine you can spot any CBG anywhere. Notice most of the researcher is either Japanese or Chinese

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s002wjh

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

That depends on the scenario we're lining out.
If you look back a few posts, I put up the scenario a certain island is declaring formal independence and china moves to blockade it with its navy, and warns the entire world (i.e.: the US) that if foreign military vessels come within a set distance (a few hundred kms lets say) such an action will be interpreted as hostile. (Tbh this is the most likely scenario in which the US and PRC can come into conflict for the forseeable future -- taiwan is the highest flashpoint, though you can replace it with a south china seas dispute which would work as well).
At this point, the US wants to send in carriers, but the chinese have repeatedly warned about their DF-21D (and submarines, YJ-62, 022s) will be used against said carriers if they move into the "demilitarized zone".
If the US attacks chinese satellites or OTH stations then it'll amount to a declaration of war anyway, so while it'll be harder for the chinese to use DF-21D to sink USN CVNs, you can expect massive casualties on both sides from the sh*t which hits the fan after -- which could easily amount to greater men lost than the few thousand of hands on a carrier.



Then it becomes a question of simply who's better... jeezus no one's saying it'll be easy (or that it's been easy) to put DF-21D into a workable system.

And I think many people are thinking about the actual military details too much -- the simple fact that there is a DF-21D, among the PLA's other A2AD weapons like the 400km YJ-62 AShM, 022s, and AIP SSKs all linked up with a future informationization network, means the US will have to really comprehend the consequences of sailing in the far westpac in a time of high conflict.
In the scenario I lined out above, if taiwan did declare formal independence and the PLAN did move to blockade it, the USN would certainly move in with carriers without a second thought if weapons like DF-21D, YJ-62 SSKs etc didn't exist. But the fact that they do, and that they have the potential to inflict massive casualties on the US side means the US will have to think twice about just how much they value the [sarcasm]freedom[/sarcasm] of taiwan. Sure the US can go ahead and say well we're going to attack your satellites, and OTH stations before we move our carriers into the "demilitarized zone" so it'll be harder for you to track our ships and thus fire your missiles -- but such an act will be equal to declaring war anyway, and in such a conflict between the US and PRC the theatre will be greater than just the seas around taiwan -- in other words, expect massive casualties on both sides. The Chinese public all see Taiwan as something that they are willing to fight for, how about the US public? Having fought in two long, draining wars in the 21st century and now fighting against their nearest peer not to mention banker? Unless you conjure up some major china-hate to overlook the losses and the two country's economic relations I can't imagine the public standing for another war. Because people love to go to war if they can win easily, but start getting butthurt when they see the fight is actually costing them.


----

If the reply to what I said above is "well the US is going to attack chinese satellites and OTH radars anyway to make it harder to fire DF-21Ds even if it means all out war" -- fine then, but by that point all bets will be off anyway.
DF-21D is as much a strategic psychological weapon of deterrence as an ICBM, B-2, or indeed an american super carrier is.



in the event of taiwan or SCS, if US decide to inervene, which has fairlly good chance US will be involvde, then US 1st priority is to secure the area for CVBG. that means use its air force, sub, missile or other to disable chinese satilite, OVH radar, amount other things. they won't sail the CVBG into a threat area without secure the area first. as far as Navy warfare, US still #1 by far. don't assume US wont get involve due to public pressure, we seen it again and again, US goto many war despite some anti-war protest. on top of that, both china and US public has some negative feeling toward each other.
if the obejective is to push china to backoff, then US are likely to position its CVBG outside range of threat. if that doesn't work, then US will start to secure the area and move in. the objective will be disable chinese navy, since navy is essential for claim SCS or taiwan. of course US could lose some ship or satelite, but at the end US has the advantage of overwhelming resource/capability/experience, these factors tilt the favor toward US side. both US and china don't want to escalate into full scale war. if US manage to elimanate the navy threat toward SCS/taiwan, then they pretty much done with their jobs.

i'm not sure why you think US navy commander is stupid enough to sail its CVBG into ABSM range without disable some essential DF21 system first. the first thing US will do is minimize the threat level in the conflict area. you sent in the scouts before you send in the main force in any conflict.
 
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escobar

Brigadier
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

in the event of taiwan or SCS, if US decide to inervene, which has fairlly good chance US will be involvde,
frankly nobody know exactly what the US will do

then US 1st priority is to secure the area for CVBG. that means use its air force, sub, missile or other to disable chinese satilite, OVH radar, amount other things.
each of these tactical moves could lead the war to a higher level:
-destroy china sat could lead to a space war
-destroy OTH radar : you violate china soil; NFU nuckear policy became caduc

as far as Navy warfare, US still #1 by far
yes but in this case doesn't necessarily lead to a tactical vistory

don't assume US wont get involve due to public pressure, we seen it again and again, US goto many war despite some anti-war protest. on top of that, both china and US public has some negative feeling toward each other.
agree with that

the objective will be disable chinese navy, since navy is essential for claim SCS or taiwan. of course US could lose some ship or satelite, of course US could lose some ship or satelite
disable the PLA Navy is not an easy task. It will take time. saying "could lose some ship or sat" and you are underestimating the enemy

US has the advantage of overwhelming resource
Are you sure?? what type of ressorce are you talking about??
both US and china don't want to escalate into full scale war
that is why they will not even go to a limited war. when almost two military neer pear began to fight seriously
it is difficult to not escalate into full scal war
 

NikeX

Banned Idiot
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Well the better I guess because somewhere in Chinese lab somebody is doing exactly the same research because the scientific principle is publicly available. Now imagine you can spot any CBG anywhere. Notice most of the researcher is either Japanese or Chinese

The nationality of the researchers mean very little. The key is moving the technology from the lab to a usable system. On that the Americans have the edge. Further it should be considered that those who have the technology first and have it deployed into a workable system have the edge on developing countermeasures to the technology when others finally get around, if ever, to deploying it into a usable system.

If you look at the dates on the papers you posted you will see that they are from the early 1990s. This means that even though the basic technology was out there in the public domain, the researchers did not know how to take advantage of it.
 

s002wjh

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

frankly nobody know exactly what the US will do

maybe recent US action indicate otherwise
each of these tactical moves could lead the war to a higher level:
-destroy china sat could lead to a space war
-destroy OTH radar : you violate china soil; NFU nuckear policy became caduc

if US decide to intervene, they already decide a conflict with china is in inevitable. US commander is not gonna risk sailing their CVBG into a known threaten territory
yes but in this case doesn't necessarily lead to a tactical vistory inevitable.

NO, but it increase the ODD of winning by several factors

agree with that


disable the PLA Navy is not an easy task. It will take time. saying "could lose some ship or sat" and you are underestimating the enemy

not really if its SCS, which china don't have sufficent air cover to protect their ships. this increase the chance of been destroy by US navy planes or other platform. especially if US navy has support from neighbor countries.
Are you sure?? what type of ressorce are you talking about??
11 carrier, experiences, technology resource etc. also US don't have to worry about oil been cut off by enemy navy etc

that is why they will not even go to a limited war. when almost two military neer pear began to fight seriously
it is difficult to not escalate into full scal war

it depend on how china and US react, if the conflict only limit to SCS and only some satelite or maybe some ship/sub is damaged, then china might back down if they think its not winneable, US will sign a truce with china soon afterwards. both country know the risk of full scale war, both will try to avoid it.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

The nationality of the researchers mean very little. The key is moving the technology from the lab to a usable system. On that the Americans have the edge. Further it should be considered that those who have the technology first and have it deployed into a workable system have the edge on developing countermeasures to the technology when others finally get around, if ever, to deploying it into a usable system.

If you look at the dates on the papers you posted you will see that they are from the early 1990s. This means that even though the basic technology was out there in the public domain, the researchers did not know how to take advantage of it.

Well It depend on how much priority one has on certain weapon system China may well behind when it come to conventional weapon but definitely not in strategic weapon

We heard a lot more about weapon development from the west because of the free press and the need for the government to justify the huge defense expenses.

But because China is authoritarian government, it doesn't need to revealed their weapon development. Just because it is not on the press doesn't meant that it doesn't exist. China s behind is conventional weapon because their budget is way smaller than US
On conventional weapon,they don't need to reinvent the wheel and if need be why not reverse engineer. And only do research and development on the strategic weapon. Therefore they make efficient use of limited budget .

But China is not behind in the strategic weapon development, Just name it . ASAT? China does it. ABM? China is as good as US, Satellite ditto. High Power Laser China China did test it in 2006 check this one out
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Nuclear weapon warhead China is as good as US. The latest US miniature warhead is W66 and China posses similar design
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Orbital unmanned spacecraft ? China did successfully test X37B like space orbital vehicle
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Supercomputer? China have the fastest supercomputer last year Chinese supercomputer was the fastest.
This year they developed their own supercomputer with their own microprocessor..
You named it the list goes on and on.

China is behind in number of conventional weapon because China commit smaller number of their GDP to weapon purchases !.5% vs 4.5% in US
 

Kurt

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

... The definition of the word littoral is the sea which is considered close to shore. The "Chinese littoral" does not extend to the second island chain -- until the 2000s the PLAN couldn't even consistently operate out to that distance. Calling the AShBM as a weapon for "littoral defence" implies its range only extends a few dozen kilometers from the coast rather than thousands of kilometers (2700 km to be exact).

island-chains-image1.gif

ashbmchart.gif

Sorry, but we discuss two different issues that got confused, better replace littoral with green water. The legal zone of control extends from the shore and is called littoral. For littoral waters the term green water has recently been coined (that holds no legal implications). The waters to the second island chain have lots of coast nearby, making them littorals of some coast. For naval operations this turns them into a totally different affair compared to blue water or wide oceans. So we can also say that China has a green water navy that can fight in the littoral waters bordering her seacoast, but these are mostly other nations littorals as far as the second island chain. From a naval warfare perspective this doesn't matter much because the oceanographic conditions of littoral/green waters matter.

The Chinese navy is a far cry from an oceanic / blue water force and I consider it unlikely to change within the next three decades because they have NO seapower that really helps them.
It's my personal opinion that the US MIC(military-industrial complex) is run by arrogant lobbyists who want US stamped on all systems neglecting alliance benefits and more economic performance. The Chinese MIC in my opinion beats the US MIC in an arrogance contest because they were capable of pissing of the Russian MIC by copyright infringement, so who would place much trust into the current Chinese business attitudes?
As always there's the claim by doing it our way we outperform all other MIC in the world because they are not as good as we are. Old stupid story. Engineering costs money and if you can run a good cooperation you can safe a lot by economy of size and get more of your money's worth.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Sorry, but we discuss two different issues that got confused, better replace littoral with green water. The legal zone of control extends from the shore and is called littoral. For littoral waters the term green water has recently been coined (that holds no legal implications). The waters to the second island chain have lots of coast nearby, making them littorals of some coast. For naval operations this turns them into a totally different affair compared to blue water or wide oceans. So we can also say that China has a green water navy that can fight in the littoral waters bordering her seacoast, but these are mostly other nations littorals as far as the second island chain. From a naval warfare perspective this doesn't matter much because the oceanographic conditions of littoral/green waters matter.

The Chinese navy is a far cry from an oceanic / blue water force and I consider it unlikely to change within the next three decades because they have NO seapower that really helps them.
It's my personal opinion that the US MIC(military-industrial complex) is run by arrogant lobbyists who want US stamped on all systems neglecting alliance benefits and more economic performance. The Chinese MIC in my opinion beats the US MIC in an arrogance contest because they were capable of pissing of the Russian MIC by copyright infringement, so who would place much trust into the current Chinese business attitudes?
As always there's the claim by doing it our way we outperform all other MIC in the world because they are not as good as we are. Old stupid story. Engineering costs money and if you can run a good cooperation you can safe a lot by economy of size and get more of your money's worth.


Perhaps, but psychological bravado can be effective IF applied carefully. It doesn't hurt to try, why, to see how the potential OPFOR reacts to it. Kind of like a quarterback in football making an audible (a fake "hut") to see if the defense are blitzing or not, then make adjustments to the previous played call.
 
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