Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

NikeX

Banned Idiot
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Yes, and we have:
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Again, your point being? Being able to shoot down satellites is not a proof that satellites carrying SAR cannot detect, track and identify CVBG. If you try to argue this being the case, then let me tell you your argument is as flawed as claiming it is impossible for AAM to hit planes because of chaffs and flares.

The ability to shoot down space borne satellites with a missile carried by an aircraft is significant. Both the United States and Russia have demonstrated this ability. This means a great deal in terms of being able to quickly counter an ocean surveillance network and inflict major damage on an enemies ability to monitor ship's movements from space. There offers tremendous flexibility. In other words you do not need a missile launched ASAT weapon to blind an opposing force.

F-15s carrying this missile developed in the 1970 - 80 time frame can cut big gaps in an ocean surveillance satellite network. And through these surveillance coverage gaps aircraft carriers can sail through unmolested to complete their mission.

We can only imagine what improvements can be claimed if this system were deployed today in support of tactical operations at sea. That is my point. Does it make sense?
 

Engineer

Major
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

The ability to shoot down space borne satellites with a missile carried by an aircraft is significant. Both the United States and Russia have demonstrated this ability. This means a great deal in terms of being able to quickly counter an ocean surveillance network and inflict major damage on an enemies ability to monitor ship's movements from space. There offers tremendous flexibility. In other words you do not need a missile launched ASAT weapon to blind an opposing force.

F-15s carrying this missile developed in the 1970 - 80 time frame can cut big gaps in an ocean surveillance satellite network. And through these surveillance coverage gaps aircraft carriers can sail through unmolested to complete their mission.

We can only imagine what improvements can be claimed if this system were deployed today in support of tactical operations at sea. That is my point. Does it make sense?

I never said it is insignificant. I am merely pointing out that a capability to inflict physical damage to a system is not a proof that said system lacks in capabilities. Using the aforementioned analogy with AAM, being able to use chaffs and flares to confuse an AAM does not indicate lack of capabilities in AAM. A similar question was brought up with regard to aircraft carrier, which is whether aircraft carrier becomes useless when there exist weapons that can sink it, and the answer is no. The idea is that being able to sink an aircraft carrier does not indicate lack of capabilities of the carrier itself.

As to ASAT, China also demonstrated capabilities in this department. An attack on Chinese surveillance network and China would respond in kind. I foresee mutual shooting of surveillance network would happen after a war has started, but not before, unless the US is desperate enough to go on a full scale preemptive assault in order to limit Chinese capabilities.
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Yes according to Admiral Willard who know better than you
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On 24 August 2010, Admiral Robert F. Willard, Commander, U.S. Pacific Command (PACOM), made the following statement to Japanese media in Tokyo:

“To our knowledge, [China’s ASBM] has undergone repeated tests and it is probably very close to being operational.”
No doubt there have been tests. But the US Naval Deputy Chief of Operations clarified the Admiral's statement (see my post to you above) and it is clear that no full flight test has been conducted.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Others have said that Willard's statement is designed to instill fear of China's ambitions and to gin up more money for the defense budget. In your opinion which is it?

If that the case doesn't seem like they succeed because the navy will face budget cut irrespective of China threat

Navy Department could face $10 billion in budget cuts
By John T. Bennett - 07/13/11 07:43 PM ET
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The Navy could be forced to slash its annual budget by $10 billion as the Pentagon pares its spending, defense insiders tell The Hill.

You can always find excuses. Does everybody promote China threat just to get budget? Even when both Navy intel chief and Taiwan intel chief, Chinese defense minister all confirm the existence of ASBM

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We agree to disagree
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

It is good that you are able to admit that much of this weapons talk is hype.

But the question I pose to you is why the US Navy investing so much money and time into a platform like X-47? What advantage do they seek to gain from deploying this weapon from carriers?

You're really going to ask that when the F-35 might be cancelled? How about the M-X Peacekeeper? How about during the later part of Cold War how Congress was angry that Soviet missiles were bigger than American ones, even though theirs were more advanced?
 

Engineer

Major
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

If that the case doesn't seem like they succeed because the navy will face budget cut irrespective of China threat

Navy Department could face $10 billion in budget cuts
By John T. Bennett - 07/13/11 07:43 PM ET
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The Navy could be forced to slash its annual budget by $10 billion as the Pentagon pares its spending, defense insiders tell The Hill.

You can always find excuses. Does everybody promote China threat just to get budget? Even when both Navy intel chief and Taiwan intel chief, Chinese defense minister all confirm the existence of ASBM

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We agree to disagree

We can also say that US is trying to perpetuate its invincible myth with all these claims of countering the ASBM or each time US gives a demonstration. After all, how do we know what US showed are not fancy CGI? Frankly, if one side has to descend to conspiracy theories like these, then it shows they have no good arguments to offer.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Interesting use of ASBM to overwhelm the Aegis system from James Holmes at Diplomat. As well rebuttal of the argument of mutual exclusive between ASBM and China carrier construction
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But the ASBM – used in concert with the larger family of missiles examined in Chapter 5 – could eliminate or severely attenuate the air and surface threats from U.S. Navy forces. The ASBM is not just a “carrier killer,” as we point out explicitly on page 120. Science of Second Artillery Campaigns, an authoritative guide to Chinese missile operations, envisions bombarding an enemy fleet with a barrage of ASBMs armed with conventional, anti-radiation, and electromagnetic-pulse warheads to “[paralyze] the enemy’s command and control system.” (Electromagnetic pulses burn out sensitive electronics from a distance.) All surface ships, not just aircraft carriers, will find themselves in Second Artillery crosshairs. This represents a contribution of enormous magnitude, whether or not it qualifies as a “game-changer” in maritime Asia.

Friedman frets over our claim that if Second Artillery rocketeers can fend off U.S. surface forces, the PLA Navy will have little need to construct super-carriers to compete with likely adversaries, namely lesser Asian powers that also fall under the shadow of Chinese weaponry. The size of a carrier, he advises, is “dictated” by “its potential striking power” rather than “its ability to beat off opposition.” Why is this an either/or question? If a carrier navy faces a fellow carrier navy, its leadership would be foolish to ignore the threat posed by enemy flattops, their air wings, and their escort ships. A navy that doesn’t command the sea does have to worry about fighting off opposition – how will it get into position to project power otherwise? – and that molds the configuration of its seagoing forces.

On the other hand, if a navy inhabits a “permissive” setting in which it confronts only vastly outmatched foes, it can focus exclusively on strike missions. While he doesn’t appear to realize it, then, Friedman accepts our finding that the PLA Navy will face no serious regional competitor if the People’s Liberation Army can hold off U.S. Navy groups and menace Asian fleets with “layered” “anti-access/area-denial” forces. Then the PLA Navy can calibrate a carrier fleet to its needs without undue fear of outside interference. Only then will it have the luxury to design a fleet solely around how much striking power the leadership deems necessary – letting power projection determine how large, capable, and expensive PLA Navy ships ought to be.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

This paper discuss several way China are contemplating to fool ABM like THAAD or SM3 Very interesting old from 2002 but still relevant Check chapter 5
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Counterintercept (fanlanzai).
The second major category of countermeasures seeks to deny missile
defense interceptors the ability to properly engage their targets. These
include: (1) multiple warheads, (2) maneuvering reentry vehicles, and
(3) hardening/spinning of ballistic missiles.
1. Multiple Warheads. China has had the capability to develop and
deploy a multiple reentry vehicle system for many years, including a
MIRV system. As of January 1996, CALT was in the midst of developing
multiple warhead payloads, each with its own guidance system and
maneuvering capability.74 Research and development on multiple
independent reentry vehicles (MIRVs) was initiated as early as 1970.
Technical difficulties, however, stalled the program. CALT renewed
research and development in 1983, shortly after the SDI announcement in
March 1983. The DF-5A, able to strike targets throughout the United
States, was the designated recipient of the MIRVs, although there is no
evidence to date that they have been deployed. The U.S. intelligence
community assesses that China could develop a multiple RV system for the
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DF-5 ICBM in a few years. Chinese pursuit of a multiple RV capability for its
mobile ICBMs and SLBMs would encounter significant technical hurdles
and would be costly.75
Critical to this effort is the miniaturization of warheads, a possible
objective of tests at Lop Nur over the last few years.76 According to
Chinese missile designers, real and decoy warheads can be mixed using
multiple warhead technology. Real warheads can be coated with radar
absorbing materials in order to weaken radar returns and reduce the
ability of interceptors to discriminate real from decoy warheads.77
2. Maneuvering Reentry Vehicles. CALT also is developing
maneuverable reentry vehicles in order to complicate missile defense
tracking. Missile designers believe maneuvering is not only a means to
complicate ballistic missile defenses, but is essential for terminal
guidance packages. While vehicles can maneuver at any time during
flight, Chinese engineers see most utility in programming a reentry
vehicle to maneuver in its terminal phase, 20-30 seconds before striking its
target. A reentry vehicle traveling a notional range of 10,000 kilometers has
the ability to maneuver within a lateral range of 556-900 kilometers.
Another maneuvering option discussed is to send the warhead up to a
higher altitude after separation from the missile, slowly descending in a
glide for a very long distance, and then finally dive toward the target.
Missile designers have demonstrated a special interest in the speed control
maneuver used in the 1,800-kilometer range Pershing-II.78 Chinese
engineers are addressing problems associated with maintaining accuracy
after exoatmospheric maneuvering.79 Through modeling and simulation,
CASC has determined that maneuvering is a viable means to reduce
land-based lower tier missile defense systems’ probability of kill.80
China allegedly acquired PATRIOT technology to calibrate an auxiliary
propulsion system on the DF-15 reentry vehicle to enable the payload
to outmaneuver a PATRIOT system as it reenters the atmosphere.81 After
computer simulations and modeling exercises, CALT is confident that its
maneuverable theater ballistic missile reentry vehicles can defeat

In addition to the techniques described above, a range of other technical
and operational countermeasures also are under consideration. These
include: (1) trajectory techniques, (2) longer range development of nonnuclear
electromagnetic pulse warheads, (3) indigenous missile defense
development, (4) anti-satellite (ASAT) development, and (5) multi-axis
strikes.
1. Trajectory Techniques. The type of trajectory Second Artillery
engineers select can affect the ability to penetrate missile defense
systems. Types of trajectories include: (1) fractional orbital
bombardment system, (2) depressed trajectories, and (3) lofted
trajectories. China conducted a feasibility study on a fractional orbital
bombardment system (FOBS) in 1966. This system launches a missile into
very low orbit, approximately 160 kilometers above earth. Before
completion of the first orbit, a retro-rocket reduces the speed of the
warhead, which hits the target with only a few minutes warning. Chinese
13 4
engineers explored the potential of launching a missile to a
predesignated point over Antarctica as a means to penetrate the weakest
point in the U.S. Warning network.85 Still viewing a FOBS as an
alternative, Chinese designers continue feasibility studies on fractional
orbiting missiles (bufen guidao daodan).86
Chinese analysts view depressed trajectories (yadi guidao) as another
option to counter space-based and mid-course missile defense systems.
Chinese engineers note that ICBMs often reach altitudes of 2,000
kilometers on a normal trajectory. However, launching a missile at a
depressed trajectory could allow the missile to achieve only a 100
kilometer altitude, complicating the ability of some space-based systems to
engage the ballistic missile. Testing and modeling has been done on the
DF-3, which normally has a range of 2,780 km and an altitude of 550 km
when flying a nominal trajectory. With depressed trajectory, the DF-3
travels 1,550 km at 100 km altitude.87
Lofted trajectories (tagao dandao) are another option that Chinese
missileers may consider. A longer range ballistic missile does not
necessarily mean the missile will be used at its maxim umeffective
range. A longer range system, fired on a lofted trajectory, can also
serve as a technical countermeasure to missile defenses. Lofted
trajectories can increase reentry speed, thereby complicating intercept
solutions for terminal defense systems or reducing the footprint or
defended area.88
2. EMP warheads. PRC engineers also are conducting feasibility studies
on electromagnetic pulse weapons (EMP) to overcome defenses. EMP
systems, such as a high powered microwave (HPM) warhead, could negate
space or ground-based sensors that support a missile defense
architecture. PLA writings indicate that fielding of an EMP warhead is a
relatively high priority. HPM devices in particular are viewed as a
“natural enemy” of more technologically advanced militaries and an
“electronic trump card” (dianzi shashou).
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

When it comes (when somebody could sink a carrier cheaply) .... The US would say .. we would retaliate with full and deadly nuke attack !!! .. so nobody would dare to use the weapon :)

as simple as that :), no ?
 

delft

Brigadier
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

It is good that you are able to admit that much of this weapons talk is hype.

But the question I pose to you is why the US Navy investing so much money and time into a platform like X-47? What advantage do they seek to gain from deploying this weapon from carriers?
It is called X-47 which means it is experimental. If it was to be an experimental attack aircraft it would be called something like XA-13, was it to be a fighter it might be called XF-38 or whatever. It is X-47 because they want to develop the technology but do not know enough about it to already give it a purpose.
 
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