Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Engineer said:

Yeah, into the liquid.


Satellites contain ample liquids and they don't have problems. Satellites also have to cool a lot of electronics in tight and confined space in vacuum, and they also don't have problems.

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yeah until the liquid become hot as the electronic. when you continuously adding heat to a bottle of water, the water eventually become the same temperture as the heat you addin(thermal dynamic 101). how much liquid can you put in the warhead MIRV and still has space to fit all the antenna, radar, communication, and guidance system. the warhead is not travel at a constant velocity such as satellites, but with extreme acceleration and turns, this generate alot force upon the coolant and other components.

satellite is in freezing cold space, which dissipated heat much faster. the warhead is travel through atomsphere at extreme speed, with thousands degree outside. the internal component are protected by heat shield, the internal electronic generate heat, which then pass to the liquid coolant as you mentioned. eventually both electronic and coolant will reach equilibrium temperature. when that happen, the electronic is not cooled anymore.
also no one put liquid coolant to cool electronic components on a missile, because missiles velocity and trajectory change depend on the location of the targets. its like moving a liquid cool PC vs an air cool PC, the latter is easily moved, the former is not. missile has too much vibration and centripetal force when making turns which can cause a leak in the coolant system that will short the electronics.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

s002wjh said:

yeah until the liquid become hot as the electronic. when you continuously adding heat to a bottle of water, the water eventually become the same temperture as the heat you addin(thermal dynamic 101). how much liquid can you put in the warhead MIRV and still has space to fit all the antenna, radar, communication, and guidance system. the warhead is not travel at a constant velocity such as satellites, but with extreme acceleration and turns, this generate alot force upon the coolant and other components.

satellite is in freezing cold space, which dissipated heat much faster. the warhead is travel through atomsphere at extreme speed, with thousands degree outside. the internal component are protected by heat shield, the internal electronic generate heat, which then pass to the liquid coolant as you mentioned. eventually both electronic and coolant will reach equilibrium temperature. when that happen, the electronic is not cooled anymore.
also no one put liquid coolant to cool electronic components on a missile, because missiles velocity and trajectory change depend on the location of the targets. its like moving a liquid cool PC vs an air cool PC, the latter is easily moved, the former is not. missile has too much vibration and centripetal force when making turns which can cause a leak in the coolant system that will short the electronics.

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The problem of shielding has been solved 5 decades ago ICBM also have sensitive electronics and yet they seem to have no problem hitting their target with 10 m accuracy The earlier ICBM use blunt body to drive the shockwave and ablative material to reduce the heat

There is nothing that prevent them to have multiple fairing

Plus the ASBM will be most likey MIRV and in that case they will jettisoned the Heat shield to allow individual warhead to hit their target

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

s002wjh said:

yeah until the liquid become hot as the electronic. when you continuously adding heat to a bottle of water, the water eventually become the same temperture as the heat you addin(thermal dynamic 101). how much liquid can you put in the warhead MIRV and still has space to fit all the antenna, radar, communication, and guidance system.

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How long do you think the warhead would hang around once activated? Not long. The liquid only needs to be able to absorb heat long enough for the electronics to work, that is assuming your presumption as true that electronics need cooling in the first place.

s002wjh said:

the warhead is not travel at a constant velocity such as satellites, but with extreme acceleration and turns, this generate alot force upon the coolant and other components.

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False. Satellites encounter acceleration when they are launched and perform orbital maneuvers. The comparison is entirely valid.

s002wjh said:

satellite is in freezing cold space, which dissipated heat much faster.

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You are only half correct. A satellite in shadow is freezing cold. A satellite in sunlight is hot as hell.

s002wjh said:

the warhead is travel through atomsphere at extreme speed, with thousands degree outside. the internal component are protected by heat shield, the internal electronic generate heat, which then pass to the liquid coolant as you mentioned. eventually both electronic and coolant will reach equilibrium temperature. when that happen, the electronic is not cooled anymore.
also no one put liquid coolant to cool electronic components on a missile, because missiles velocity and trajectory change depend on the location of the targets. its like moving a liquid cool PC vs an air cool PC, the latter is easily moved, the former is not.

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The warhead travels at 7km/s. The atmosphere has 100 km thickness. Let say the warhead is entering at a 45 degrees angle so that now the warhead has to pass through 171 km of atmosphere. The entire trip takes less than 30 seconds. Let's multiply this value by 2 just for kick, because I think the warhead would need to slow down somewhat, so the trip now takes 1 minute. Instance cold-pack can last 1 minute with no problem. The warhead would strike the target long before the temperature of coolant reaches equilibrium with the electronics.

s002wjh said:

missile has too much vibration and centripetal force when making turns which can cause a leak in the coolant system that will short the electronics.

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Satellites encounter acceleration as well, during launch and orbit changes. They don't leak, so what you are describing are non-issues. In fact, all the "problems" you have described are non-issues, because they have long been solved by engineering solutions.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Engineer said:

How long do you think the warhead would hang around once activated? Not long. The liquid only needs to be able to absorb heat long enough for the electronics to work, that is assuming your presumption as true that electronics need cooling in the first place.


False. Satellites encounter acceleration when they are launched and perform orbital maneuvers. The comparison is entirely valid.


You are only half correct. A satellite in shadow is freezing cold. A satellite in sunlight is hot as hell.


The warhead travels at 7km/s. The atmosphere has 100 km thickness. Let say the warhead is entering at a 45 degrees angle so that now the warhead has to pass through 171 km of atmosphere. The entire trip takes less than 30 seconds. Let's multiply this value by 2 just for kick, because I think the warhead would need to slow down somewhat, so the trip now takes 1 minute. Instance cold-pack can last 1 minute with no problem. The warhead would strike the target long before the temperature of coolant reaches equilibrium with the electronics.


Satellites encounter acceleration as well, during launch and orbit changes. They don't leak, so what you are describing are non-issues. In fact, all the "problems" you have described are non-issues, because they have long been solved by engineering solutions.

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its depends on how much electronic in the system to cool, and amount of coolant. whats the size of a MIRV warhead? after put in all the system in there, how much space for coolant. its not possible to cool multiple IC chips with insufficent coolant during the entire lunch to hit time


satellite is typically off during launch, and it stay in the same orbital trajectory most time. satellite don't experenice vibration and centripetal force such as maneuverable ASBM in atomsphere. what do you think the vibration like when the warhead travel at several km/s, also making maneuver at the same time .

as for temperture facing the sun, its certainlly not thousands degree, which is what the warhead experience during re-entry thus the reason for heat shield. the temperture of moon when facing the sun is about 130c.

any liquid system can fail and cause leak when enough vibration and force apply on it. not only MIRV has to have enough space to store all the guidance, radar etc system, but it also has to store enough coolant to cool the chips throught out the flight and space for the liquid cooling system, which include pipes/hose, pump etc. all these things has to fit in a small space. MIRV is gonna be much smaller than the typical single warhead. liquid cooling system typically take more space compare to air cool or passive cooling solution. if you look at liquid cooled PC, it take more space compare to a passive heatsink.

now i'm not saying its impossible to fit the liquid cooling system inside, but i have to know how big is those MIRV DF21 gonna be. and how much electronic, and other system is in there. whats the dimension of a single warhead DF21.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Hendrik_2000 said:

The problem of shielding has been solved 5 decades ago ICBM also have sensitive electronics and yet they seem to have no problem hitting their target with 10 m accuracy The earlier ICBM use blunt body to drive the shockwave and ablative material to reduce the heat

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There is nothing that prevent them to have multiple fairing

Plus the ASBM will be most likey MIRV and in that case they will jettisoned the Heat shield to allow individual warhead to hit their target

Click to expand...

i'm not talking about shielding, but an active liquid cooling system inside each MIRV of ASBM. ASBM require more real time processing capability and alot independent guidance system compare to ICBM, all those extra electronic/chips in a MIRV DF21 require more cooling. space, power, heat become an issue.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Gee, S00wjh you keep bringing up cooling,heat,vibration etc. Modern defense electronic is not fragile as you think.

I couldn't think of more hellish environment than inside the artillery shell where the speed is approaching 300m/sec . Not considering the heat,dirt,acceleration .Yet radar, electronic survive this kind of environment as proven by the firing of SADARM shell
Check this one out basically work on the same principle as ASBM. They have miniature radar scanning the field below and fire the munition toward the target

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

s002wjh said:

its depends on how much electronic in the system to cool, and amount of coolant. whats the size of a MIRV warhead? after put in all the system in there, how much space for coolant. its not possible to cool multiple IC chips with insufficent coolant during the entire lunch to hit time

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There is no need to keep the electronics cool for the entire flight of the warhead. The warhead lies dormant while being launched and the coolants are only needed while the warhead is activated, just like a satellite. It is entirely possible to cool all the electronics during the terminal phase of flight through chemical reactions like that provided by instant cold packs. Should cooling be needed for the entire flight, a similar cooling method can be employed on the launcher with heat pipes connecting to the warhead(s) that can be severed during delivery.

s002wjh said:

satellite is typically off during launch...

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So is a warhead. Half of the flight of a ballistic missile is controlled by the computer on the launcher itself.

s002wjh said:

...and it stay in the same orbital trajectory most time. satellite don't experenice vibration and centripetal force such as maneuverable ASBM in atomsphere. what do you think the vibration like when the warhead travel at several km/s, also making maneuver at the same time .

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Staying in the same orbit most of the time is not equivalent to never.

Satellites do experience vibration and acceleration. Once again, I point to launching and orbital maneuvers. A lot of vibration is experienced during launching, and a satellite being off during launch time does not magically buffer the propellant tanks and other liquid containers against vibration. These tanks have to be designed with the stresses encountered at launch and orbital maneuver in mind.

Kinetic Kill Vehicles for Anti Ballistic Missile defense carry propellent and oxidizer, and you can see their containers in the pictures of . KKVs are designed to be able to maneuver rapidly to intercept the incoming target, and the examples shown have no issue carrying liquid on board. In fact, a liquid cooling system is much more simple because

1. there is no plumbing,
2. coolant is not consumed so does not slosh around the tanks.

s002wjh said:

as for temperture facing the sun, its certainlly not thousands degree, which is what the warhead experience during re-entry thus the reason for heat shield. the temperture of moon when facing the sun is about 130c.

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The warhead doesn't experience over a thousand degrees during re-entry. It is the heat shield which encounters such extreme temperature, and it is the job of the heat shield to provide insulation and protection of the actual spacecraft/warhead against such high temperature.

s002wjh said:

...any liquid system can fail and cause leak when enough vibration and force apply on it.

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You are repeating yourself, so I will repeat what I have pointed out once again: satellites carry liquid on board. These satellites do not leak while being launched or completing orbital maneuvers. What happens on satellites carry over to warheads.

s002wjh said:

not only MIRV has to have enough space to store all the guidance, radar etc system, but it also has to store enough coolant to cool the chips throught out the flight and space for the liquid cooling system, which include pipes/hose, pump etc. all these things has to fit in a small space. MIRV is gonna be much smaller than the typical single warhead.

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Nonsense. You pointed out that satellite lies dormant during launch phase and yet you expect a warhead not to? You are contradicting yourself here. There is no need to provide cooling to the warhead for the entire flight. Only a sufficient amount is needed to provide cooling while the warhead is active, assuming that the warhead needs cooling in the first place.

s002wjh said:

liquid cooling system typically take more space compare to air cool or passive cooling solution. if you look at liquid cooled PC, it take more space compare to a passive heatsink.

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Invalid comparison. Space is a vacuum and the cooling system for PC does not work in a vacuum environment.

s002wjh said:

now i'm not saying its impossible to fit the liquid cooling system inside, but i have to know how big is those MIRV DF21 gonna be. and how much electronic, and other system is in there. whats the dimension of a single warhead DF21.

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Instant cold packs can be pretty cold. You don't need a huge tank of that stuff if that is what you are envisioning.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Actually I was thinking of a highly compressed gas that is expanded to provide a stream of cold gas. An "everyday" example: take a bottle of highly compressed carbon dioxide, which is a liquid. If you open the tap out comes a gas so cold that it actually produces "dry ice", carbon dioxide snow of -72 Celsius.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Hendrik_2000 said:

Gee, S00wjh you keep bringing up cooling,heat,vibration etc. Modern defense electronic is not fragile as you think.

I couldn't think of more hellish environment than inside the artillery shell where the speed is approaching 300m/sec . Not considering the heat,dirt,acceleration .Yet radar, electronic survive this kind of environment as proven by the firing of SADARM shell
Check this one out basically work on the same principle as ASBM. They have miniature radar scanning the field below and fire the munition toward the target

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Click to expand...

i said liquid cooling with its component are not ideal to cool things inside a samll warhead travel at 8km/s where outside temp reach thousands degree C. does those precision guide ammunition has liquid coolant with pump & pipe in it?? most advance missile use air cool, not liquid cool stuff due to size, speed, vibration. read my thread next plz, this way you know why i was talking about the vibration, size, etc etc.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

s002wjh said:

i said liquid cooling with its component are not ideal to cool things inside a samll warhead travel at 8km/s where outside temp reach thousands degree C. does those precision guide ammunition has liquid coolant with pump & pipe in it?? most advance missile use air cool, not liquid cool stuff due to size, speed, vibration. read my thread next plz, this way you know why i was talking about the vibration, size, etc etc.

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Just because liquid coolant is used that does not mean plumbing is required. With a one shot deal thing like a munition, chemical reactions like that in an instant cold pack is enough. All it needs is conductor that transfers heat from the electronics to the liquid.