Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: PLAN Carrier Operations..News, Videos & Photos

SM3 is short range missile You need much bigger missile to intercept at mid course. But China will introduce even longer range missile 4000 km in 2014 and after that it will introduce flat trajectory missile very hard to intercept
 
P

Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Hendrik_2000 said:
Not really They used over the horizon radar to cue in their their burgeoning space asset to find the CBG then confirm it either with UAV or J20. In this time and age Satellite do most of the work completely different than WW2 carrier engagement where they used spotter plane

There is no place to hide big ship anymore. SM3 is not perfect yet . They are not even finished testing yet and easily fooled by counter measure and MIRV not to mention the violent terminal boost.

whatever test that they did are mostly dumbed down test with no real world relation

The first brigade of DF 21C is already forming as of last year
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Last week, China’s state-run media quietly announced the construction of facilities for a new Second Artillery missile brigade – the 96166 Unit – in the northern Guangdong municipality of Shaoguan [韶关]. Although the province is already home to a Second Artillery short-range ballistic missile (SRBM) brigade (the 96169 unit in Meizhou), initial reports and indicators signal that the new unit could have unique capabilities that could complicate the strategic calculus in Asia, and the South China Sea in particular.

Although the introduction of the 1,700km range solid fuelled, terminally guided DF-21C ballistic missile into Guangdong is possible, the brigade is also a candidate to be the first unit equipped with the DF-21D anti-ship ballistic missile (ASBM). The DF-21C, first introduced into the active inventory in 2005, is designed to attack fixed targets on land. If an ASBM is successful in passing the necessary design reviews and a sufficient sensor network is in place, the Shaoguan brigade could become the first in the PLA to field a lethal capability against moving targets at sea out to a range of 1,500-2,000km or more from launch sites.
Click to expand...

Pay attention: I said high-fidelity targeting and detection systems. Very long range over the horizon radars provide a guesstimate as to where someone is. They don't provide the resolution required to be able to aim something at someone. For that, you need EO/IR systems or C/D/G band systems, which have very short ranges (no more than 200nm for the best systems). In short, you are looking at placing something fairly close to a carrier group in order to see it, and such systems are well within reach of a carrier group's weapons and aircraft. And that's ignoring the issue that you will have to verify the target as well; it could be a decoy or even a civilian ship in the wrong location.

Mind you, we didn't have any trouble hiding carrier groups from the Soviets during the Cold War, and they had way more in search platforms, aircraft, and satellites compared to the Chinese. You can still hide a ship pretty effectively despite all the gee-whiz gizmo's out there.
 
escobar

escobar

Brigadier
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

DF-21 may just be a deception tool like PLA love to use ( Military Art War)
and it seems like it is working
USN navy is investing big money in SM3
but for me the greatest challenge for USN is thos advanced SSK PLAN is building and their huge
inventory of mine (over 100 000)
more money for SM3 is less monney for counter-mine technology
 
P

Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

escobar said:
DF-21 may just be a deception tool like PLA love to use ( Military Art War)
and it seems like it is working
USN navy is investing big money in SM3
but for me the greatest challenge for USN is thos advanced SSK PLAN is building and their huge
inventory of mine (over 100 000)
more money for SM3 is less monney for counter-mine technology
Click to expand...

Problem:
1. Chinese subs (especially the nuke ones) aren't known for being very quiet. Best estimates are that the current Shang class submarines are only as quiet as an early US Los Angles class attack boat, and the USN is well past that stage already (the Seawolf class submarines and the Virginia's are estimated to be as quiet at speed as a Los Angeles class submarine tied up at dock). To reliably catch a carrier group, you will need a nuclear submarine, as conventional submarines are too slow and too short legged to effectively catch carrier groups unless the carrier group happened to run over one by sheer chance. As USN carrier groups are usually accompanied by a submarine or two (plus the many USN subs that will be present on independent patrols), Chinese sub skippers will have to be constantly watching their own backs for a USN sub hunting them as well, as they will stick out more easily.

2. Mines pose a different problem; they can either be tethered, or be free floating. Tethered mines are restricted to littoral waters, where a carrier group will never venue into in a combat situation, and free floating mines are extremely dangerous to friendly ships and neutrals (meaning that the entire Chinese coastline will have to be closed to ships for years to come, meaning no trade).
 
bd popeye

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

DF-21 may just be a deception tool like PLA love to use ( Military Art War)
and it seems like it is working
USN navy is investing big money in SM3
but for me the greatest challenge for USN is thos advanced SSK PLAN is building and their huge
inventory of mine (over 100 000)
more money for SM3 is less monney for counter-mine technology
Click to expand...

and..

Mines pose a different problem; they can either be tethered, or be free floating. Tethered mines are restricted to littoral waters, where a carrier group will never venue into in a combat situation, and free floating mines are extremely dangerous to friendly ships and neutrals (meaning that the entire Chinese coastline will have to be closed to ships for years to come, meaning no trade)
Click to expand...

The USN practices mine warfare & counter measures in the Persian Gulf & near San Diego CA almost daily.
 
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Equation

Equation

Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

escobar said:
DF-21 may just be a deception tool like PLA love to use ( Military Art War)
and it seems like it is working
USN navy is investing big money in SM3
but for me the greatest challenge for USN is thos advanced SSK PLAN is building and their huge
inventory of mine (over 100 000)
more money for SM3 is less monney for counter-mine technology
Click to expand...

That could be, but why would one spent tens of millions of dollars or even a billion for just a deception tool and you can spend it on newer satellites and tracking systems?
 
escobar

escobar

Brigadier
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Pointblank said:
Problem:
1. Chinese subs (especially the nuke ones) aren't known for being very quiet. Best estimates are that the current Shang class submarines are only as quiet as an early US Los Angles class attack boat, and the USN is well past that stage already (the Seawolf class submarines and the Virginia's are estimated to be as quiet at speed as a Los Angeles class submarine tied up at dock). To reliably catch a carrier group, you will need a nuclear submarine, as conventional submarines are too slow and too short legged to effectively catch carrier groups unless the carrier group happened to run over one by sheer chance. As USN carrier groups are usually accompanied by a submarine or two (plus the many USN subs that will be present on independent patrols), Chinese sub skippers will have to be constantly watching their own backs for a USN sub hunting them as well, as they will stick out more easily.

2. Mines pose a different problem; they can either be tethered, or be free floating. Tethered mines are restricted to littoral waters, where a carrier group will never venue into in a combat situation, and free floating mines are extremely dangerous to friendly ships and neutrals (meaning that the entire Chinese coastline will have to be closed to ships for years to come, meaning no trade).
Click to expand...

1 the ssk will not attempt to catch USN CVN. they will wait for them. Even an old SSk is not a joke (Korea navy ship sink by a DPRK old SSK) and china know that USN sub sub are very quiet. So the coming type 095 will deal with seawolf/virginia.the Chinese are in no hurry and don't compare PLAN of 2011 to USN of 2011 but compare them in 2050 (when China militar will finish it modernisation if you read their strategic thinkings)

2 they are developping floating mines with the capacity to be ''turn off'' to allow friend ships
 
escobar

escobar

Brigadier
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

bd popeye said:
and..



The USN practices mine warfare & counter measures in the Persian Gulf & near San Diego CA almost daily.
Click to expand...

i know that but in a war with a country like china mine warfare & counter measures will take months to clear the seas
 
escobar

escobar

Brigadier
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Equation said:
That could be, but why would one spent tens of millions of dollars or even a billion for just a deception tool and you can spend it on newer satellites and tracking systems?
Click to expand...

they can spend money to put into place ASBM componants ( Satellite tracking, OTH radar, UAV surveillance etc) but all those tool are usefull even if you don't have a ASBM
 
escobar

escobar

Brigadier
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

it seems for me that there are people who think (in USA and China) that they can win a war against each other. they are either stupids or foolish. If they decide to go in war against each other do we really think they will do that in this state? no way. they will turn their huge industrial base to a war machine and produce more jet, tanks, sub, ships etc. money will not be a problem. it will be a war in every fields : space, sea, air, electromagnetic spectrum, internet, economy and everywhere. Maybe one wan win tactically but none will win strategically.
Like an american analyst said : '' we must make every effort to avoid a war with china" and This also applies to China
 
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