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Temstar

Brigadier
Registered Member
On the topic of tanks, one of the thing that stood out to me is with the proliferation of FPVs and loitering munitions what was once considered to be the safer design - bustle autoloader is actually turning out to be a huge weak spot that FPV pilot will deliberate target. On the other hand the "less safe" Soviet style carousel autoloader with all the ammo side the vehicle protected by the primary armour + cope cage + generous application of ERA may actually turn out to be the safer option in this environment.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Soviet tank design doctrine is pretty sound. It gets picked on by NAFO and it does lack about 20 tonnes of more armour but the design philosophy provides the tanks with better all round protection in contrast to NATO tank design philosophy emphasising frontal 70 degrees tops. Chinese tanks limit this angle even more! focusing basically pure frontal only. If Soviet tanks packed up to 60 tonnes total as well, I'd rather be sitting in one of those in a battlefield where shots can come from any direction with the proliferation of munition types.

It's just that T series ~ 40 tonnes, Type tanks ~45 tonnes to 55 tonnes with 99A, NATO tanks ~ 60 tonnes to edging 70T.

With T series distributing armour in wider angle coverage, it's actually impressive seeing some T-72s take missile hits in Syria and rolling away. Russian tank armour material is solid. NATO and Chinese tanks have several times thicker frontal armour and these T series have also been surviving front and angled hits.
 

FriedButter

Major
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Scholz gets Orbán out the room to open Ukraine’s membership talks​

BRUSSELS — About three hours into deadlocked discussions among EU leaders on Ukraine’s accession to the bloc, the German chancellor proposed to Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán: Grab a coffee outside the room, perhaps.

If Orbán really wasn’t willing to agree to opening enlargement talks with Kyiv, Chancellor Olaf Scholz suggested, he should consider leaving the room briefly. Scholz addressed the recommendation to the Hungarian leader in front of his EU counterparts gathered around the circular negotiation table at Thursday’s leaders’ summit.

The idea, Scholz said, would allow the 26 EU leaders who remained to approve Ukraine’s road to accession with the required unanimity — which EU rules say is also fulfilled if one leader is absent — while Orbán could still say he hadn’t voted in favor.

After the two men spoke on the sidelines, Orbán left the room, paving the way for the EU’s historic decision to open accession negotiations with Ukraine after days of uncertainty given Orbán’s vehement opposition.

Scholz’s remarkable strategy, which was described to POLITICO by three officials with knowledge of the events, raised eyebrows in Brussels and beyond. The chancellor’s performance on the European stage since he was appointed in 2021 has been a disappointment so far, with critics noting his lack of tactical negotiating and communication skills compared to former Chancellor Angela Merkel.

The idea that a EU leader had to leave the room to be unanimous is highly unusual. In fact, EU officials and diplomats at the summit on Thursday could not say if Scholz’s move had ever been used before.

“He used an old trick from his time with the Young Socialists,” said one official at the EU summit, referring to the youth organization of Scholz’s Social Democratic Party (SPD) in which the chancellor served as deputy chairman during the 1980s. The official, like others quoted, was granted anonymity to speak about the ongoing EU summit discussions.

One official said Orbán’s position began to waver during a joint Thursday breakfast discussion with Scholz, French President Emmanuel Macron, EU Council President Charles Michel, and European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen. During the meal, Orbán struggled to provide plausible arguments for his claim that Ukraine suffered from rule-of-law deficits that left it unready for accession, the official said.

Undermining Orbán’s claim that the Commission had erred in assessing Ukraine’s reform progress was the fact that the commissioner responsible for enlargement, Olivér Várhelyi, was a close political ally from Hungary handpicked by Orbán. A spokesperson for Orbán could not be reached for a comment.

Hours later, at the summit, EU leaders continued to grill the Hungarian prime minister over his continued refusal to open talks with Ukraine.

“After a few hours in which the other 26 leaders had debunked all of Orbán’s arguments, Scholz came just at the right time with his proposal,” one EU diplomat said. “It came in handy.”

After EU leaders announced the decision to open accession talks, Orbán said in a Facebook post: “Hungary does not want to be part of this bad decision!”

By that time, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy had celebrated the announcement on X, saying: “I thank Chancellor Scholz for his personal efforts and Germany for its leadership.”

Pro-Ukrainian accounts on X, which in the past had pilloried Scholz for his enduring hesitance to support Ukraine with arms such as tanks, were also full of praise.

“Sorry for all the times we made fun of you Olaf,” wrote blogger Saint Javelin. “You are a true friend.”
BRUSSELS — About three hours into deadlocked discussions among EU leaders on Ukraine’s accession to the bloc, the German chancellor proposed to Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán: Grab a coffee outside the room, perhaps.
 

OTCDebunker

New Member
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I mean what does he (Scholz) really hope to accomplish?

Maybe I'm not seeing the whole picture here but is it actually possible to admit Ukraine (or any other country) into NATO or even EU by this method where you simply kick out the guy who's going to vote "no" and then take the vote with only the people voting "yes"?

Even NATO/EU leadership can't actually be this stupid to think that this is going to work?

Also, let's be perfectly honest here and call a spade a spade.

NATO leadership trying to get Ukraine in is the biggest huff of copium I've seen in a while.

They obviously want to do this so that they can then later on claim the justification of "rUSziA iNvAded a NAFO mEmBeR wE musT g0 to WARRRRR wiT rUSziA!!!"

If they are actually this stupid then I welcome it completely!

EU/NATO warring with Russia will mean the same thing as the last 2 times that the west warred with a country that shared a border with china. Total and complete loss and disaster!!

China will not tolerate an enemy on the borders with china, and that was for a border as small and tiny as north Korea and Vietnam. Little bitty bitty slivers of land bordering china

Russia shares borders with china like 1000 miles long. Lol and they think china will just idly stand by and let this very obvious invasion of ORCS happen? Hahahahaha

Not to mention that the wests only remaining military advantages lie in a select few naval assets. Mostly SSN.

So thank you very much for choosing to war with china by doing the exact type of war where you cannot even use your advantages against us. Man if only china's enemies had been this stupid 2 centuries ago.

NATO warring with Russia also means that Japan, SK, PH, etc. everybody in the Asian sphere of things will not be getting involved.

Lol what do they think is going to happen? Tell the citizens of those countries to sacrifice their lives to be sent halfway across the world to combat Russia in a war that obviously has nothing to do with them?

And how exactly do they even plan an operation to take Asian forces away from asia and send them to eastern Europe? You ain't going to be going through Asia or china for that matter that's for sure. Or do they think that they can somehow start a 2 front war where the Asian side of the western dick riders war with china (lol ya ok without murican support) and the European side wars with Russia? Hahahahahaha ok sure! You would all be spread so thin that Chinese 10 year olds could probably go all the way right to pearl harbor and Schofield baracks and start cocksmacking you.

But ya sure good idea scholz...I guess.
 
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