Miscellaneous News

BoraTas said:

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1734871111219978491

European contribution is higher than the USA in absolute terms and that's without accounting for Americans arbitrarily valuing weapons they transfer and the toll of sanctions and refugees.

Click to expand...

Once you count Japan, IMF and Canada (economy wholly depended on US) as part of US than the direct budget funding of US is no less than Europe. it seem EU is over valuing its spending on migration as part of Ukraine. which it will have to spend anyway and its benefit countries like Poland, Germany and Czech. US weopons, training is cheap thats why Ukrainians are waiting for F-16.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Funding of the state budget of Ukraine since the beginning of the full-scale war​

07 December 2023

Click to expand...

BoraTas said:

The current situation is just absurd because Ukraine was pushed to escalate several times by the rest of Eastern Europe and Americans.

Click to expand...

you do realize there are German agents in East Europe (there was long interview of Hungarian minister about Auto industry where he was asked to take position opposite of Germany by Germans) and inside EU that do things which it does not want to do itself (its better that Lithuania test the waters on China) and EU has consistently pushed Ukraine in this direction. who gave visa free travel to Ukraine?. former Ukranian President Poroshenko made 3 visits to US but 7 visits each to Belgium and Germany.

BoraTas said:

The same Eastern Europe and the USA are and will be blocking every peace proposal by Western European nations, who happen to be the ones who are paying the greatest price among Ukraine's collaborators and who will finance Ukraine's reconstruction. So instead of getting the most say, these nations will have little to no say. And any opinion that is different from the American one will end up with the politician who proposed it getting called a "Putin's slave" by loads of think-tankers the US Govt funds.

Great job Germany, France, Scandinavians and BeNeLux, great job...

Click to expand...

why would Germany want peace? This Ukraine war re engage US into Europe and Germany use US power to unite Europe behind Germany. and there is much larger benefit to Europe of US power in Mideast. Putin is German speaking and people around him are Turkish speaking. once you combine the two languages than you get the full picture and these things comes up in Arabic.
they want to wait until end of January to see what US do with funding.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

"We still have some time, Ukraine is not out of money in the next few weeks," Rutte told reporters on leaving the talks.
"We agreed with the 26 countries. Victor Orban, Hungary, were not yet able to do that. I am fairly confident we can get a deal early next year, we are thinking of late January," said Rutte, adding there would be another summit to reach the deal.

Click to expand...

Felt like China went all out on the propaganda after this visit, I don't think I've seen anything like this before for such a short two day visit.

BoraTas said:

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1734871111219978491

European contribution is higher than the USA in absolute terms and that's without accounting for Americans arbitrarily valuing weapons they transfer and the toll of sanctions and refugees.

The current situation is just absurd because Ukraine was pushed to escalate several times by the rest of Eastern Europe and Americans. The same Eastern Europe and the USA are and will be blocking every peace proposal by Western European nations, who happen to be the ones who are paying the greatest price among Ukraine's collaborators and who will finance Ukraine's reconstruction. So instead of getting the most say, these nations will have little to no say. And any opinion that is different from the American one will end up with the politician who proposed it getting called a "Putin's slave" by loads of think-tankers the US Govt funds.

Great job Germany, France, Scandinavians and BeNeLux, great job...

View attachment 122577

Click to expand...

Like Russia in early 2022 they drank their own koolaid and thought that NATO produced arms were invincible and could easily streamroll legacy Soviet arms. Turns out however that a leopard 2 is just as vulnerable to those 2000 dollar FPVs as a T-72.

siegecrossbow said:

Like Russia in early 2022 they drank their own koolaid and thought that NATO produced arms were invincible and could easily streamroll legacy Soviet arms. Turns out however that a leopard 2 is just as vulnerable to those 2000 dollar FPVs as a T-72.

Click to expand...

I mean some of those later nato arms are quite a bit less dated than the oldest soviet stuff. It's a big yikes that 2A6 which has a very recently redesigned turret on a more modern chassis than T72 to begin with apparently doesn't perform noticably better than a 72B3M...

siegecrossbow said:

Like Russia in early 2022 they drank their own koolaid and thought that NATO produced arms were invincible and could easily streamroll legacy Soviet arms. Turns out however that a leopard 2 is just as vulnerable to those 2000 dollar FPVs as a T-72.

Click to expand...

Biscuits said:

I mean some of those later nato arms are quite a bit less dated than the oldest soviet stuff. It's a big yikes that 2A6 which has a very recently redesigned turret on a more modern chassis than T72 to begin with apparently doesn't perform noticably better than a 72B3M...

Click to expand...

But guys, do they?

I don't think the available evidence we have access to is enough to make this conclusion. For all we know those Leopards have been engaging in pretty much same level combat but still surviving more. As for videos, they only show shots. Abandoned Leos are due to various reasons including mines and artillery. I'm not convinced we can say Leos performed just as poorly as T-72s. I'm also not saying T-72s are certainly poorly protected. It's probably much less well protected than NATO tanks (ahem 15 tonnes of extra armour does something surprise surprise).

ougoah said:

But guys, do they?

I don't think the available evidence we have access to is enough to make this conclusion. For all we know those Leopards have been engaging in pretty much same level combat but still surviving more. As for videos, they only show shots. Abandoned Leos are due to various reasons including mines and artillery. I'm not convinced we can say Leos performed just as poorly as T-72s. I'm also not saying T-72s are certainly poorly protected. It's probably much less well protected than NATO tanks (ahem 15 tonnes of extra armour does something surprise surprise).

Click to expand...

Even if they survive a bit longer, or do a bit better.

They are still much more costlier as well as produced in lower numbers, not to mention, it seems like they require more maintainence as well.

ougoah said:

But guys, do they?

I don't think the available evidence we have access to is enough to make this conclusion. For all we know those Leopards have been engaging in pretty much same level combat but still surviving more. As for videos, they only show shots. Abandoned Leos are due to various reasons including mines and artillery. I'm not convinced we can say Leos performed just as poorly as T-72s. I'm also not saying T-72s are certainly poorly protected. It's probably much less well protected than NATO tanks (ahem 15 tonnes of extra armour does something surprise surprise).

Click to expand...

Their top is only 30mm steel. T-72 has at least 80mm, and has cope cage, ERA modules. Might better protected vs drones.

ougoah said:

But guys, do they?

I don't think the available evidence we have access to is enough to make this conclusion. For all we know those Leopards have been engaging in pretty much same level combat but still surviving more. As for videos, they only show shots. Abandoned Leos are due to various reasons including mines and artillery. I'm not convinced we can say Leos performed just as poorly as T-72s. I'm also not saying T-72s are certainly poorly protected. It's probably much less well protected than NATO tanks (ahem 15 tonnes of extra armour does something surprise surprise).

Click to expand...

In any case they are not the wunderwaffen they thought they were going to be.

siegecrossbow said:

In any case they are not the wunderwaffen they thought they were going to be.

Click to expand...

Before Russian- Ukraine war those wunder tank: Abrams Merkava Leopard is something magical god send weapons in heart of milions worshipers around the world. Now the reality show them those magical top secret composite armor can withstand even alien weapons fire is nothing but just a hyper myth. Lol

ougoah said:

But guys, do they?

I don't think the available evidence we have access to is enough to make this conclusion.

Click to expand...

Pretty much impossible to get enough quality data to compare. But basically what we see show that there's negligible difference when used as part of a whole system.

Ukraine achieved its only major gains with T64s after all.

ougoah said:

For all we know those Leopards have been engaging in pretty much same level combat but still surviving more. As for videos, they only show shots. Abandoned Leos are due to various reasons including mines and artillery.

Click to expand...

That is also just speculation.

ougoah said:

I'm not convinced we can say Leos performed just as poorly as T-72s. I'm also not saying T-72s are certainly poorly protected. It's probably much less well protected than NATO tanks (ahem 15 tonnes of extra armour does something surprise surprise).

Click to expand...

Paraphrasing what many US nationalists say, you have to look at per capita! The T72 only needs to protect 3 people, and has a lower profile. The later models are also better armored on the top relative to nato tanks.

I'd only say the final result is close, but inconclusive. Which is really not impressive for nato side, because some of their tanks were claimed by themselves as next generation and marketed as equal to the newest ones from Russia/China. T72 is a very old design, and wasnt even well designed with new types of warfare in mind back when it was made.