Miscellaneous News

Blitzo said:

Where did anyone other than yourself describe or perceive that large scale bombardment of civilian infrastructure constituted the extent and totality of Israel's policies and actions to Palestine?

This tangent of discussion is rather silly, but as you've chosen to go down the path, then at least review what Siege wrote originally that you quoted and which others responded to you about.

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I understand this, but my point was that I specifically asked whether seige believed there would be a moral outcry here if China bombarded Japanese infrastructure, and several people immediately answered yes, with no qualifier about how that connected to Israel's actions, or what else China would additionally have to do to be worthy of condemnation.

Boltzmann said:

You do not have a long history of being persecutors because everything needed to build a large and prosperous empire was already located within China itself, you are right. However, the corollary of this, as I am sure you know, is that there have been several dozen extraordinarily violent and brutal civil wars over control of these resources. You were consistently winners because the wars you fought were between different factions of Chinese themselves. There is nothing wrong with this, but pretending it did not happen is dishonest.

And that is not to say that Chinese states have never engaged in violent repression or conquest of others. The genocide of the Dzungar people by the Qing is a prime example, as is the many repeated invasions of northern Vietnam by dynasties stretching back to the Han. The Vietnamese certainly remember this.

And when it comes to the current (and hopefully permanent) Chinese state, its ability to industrialize was wholly dependent on the mass killing of the landlord class that occurred in the immediate 2 years of so after the KMT were expulsed. This involved the death of well over a million people, and very often the killing of entire family networks rather than just the individual landlords themselves. But without this, it would never have been possible to create an industrial base on which development could occur, because all of the food that needed to be devoted to urban workers would have been hoarded by landlords.

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Chinese indeed conquered many others and Chinese history is indeed filled with violence. China started out as some bronze age tribes along the Yellow River. Chinese originally controlled maybe a few villages along a small stretch of land. How did China expand to become an empire? Sometimes by people peacefully joining, but most often by conquest. The difference was, once conquered, there was no need for further bloodshed unless they continued resistance.

Before the 20th century we were only victimized by Xiongnu, Mongols and Manchus. We conquered the Xiongnu twice, vassalized 1st time then destroyed the 2nd. Ming Empire conquered and vassalized the Mongols. We indeed lost to Manchu, but they lost in the end and became Chinese themselves. What do we have to prove? Did anyone get revenge on the Manchu royal family? No, Puyi lived peacefully unlike King Louis XVI or Tsar Nicholas.

was not an example of unnecessary revenge for the sake of proving a point. Armed landlords conducted war crimes under the KMT. They were not innocent victims. Many landlord families were part of capitalist kin networks that owned large plots of land - and used force of arms to enforce their rule on that land. It is impossible to prove individual guilt in such circumstances because everyone is complicit in crime.

During the Chinese Civil War, the

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established the Homecoming Legion (

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: 還鄉團;

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: Huán xiāng tuán; also translated as 'Return-to-the-Village Corps'), which was composed of landlords who sought the return of their redistributed land and property from peasants and CCP

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, and the release of forcibly conscripted peasants and communist prisoners of war.

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These militia accompanied KMT forces advancing into the countryside even before the late 1946 formal outbreak of the civil war.

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On the pretext of pacifying the countryside, the Homecoming Legion killed civilians indiscriminately and routinely blackmailed, raped, and extorted civilians.

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The Homecoming Legion conducted a guerrilla warfare campaign against CCP forces and purported collaborators up until the end of the civil war in 1949.

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Many landlords used violence to oppose land reform even after the defeat of the Kuomintang in 1949. Some landlords poisoned wells, destroyed agricultural tools, or cut down forests. The CCP widely disseminated stories of landlords' crimes as propaganda to build support for its view of the landlord class as an evil whole.

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Boltzmann said:

I understand this, but my point was that I specifically asked whether seige believed there would be a moral outcry here if China bombarded Japanese infrastructure, and several people immediately answered yes, with no qualifier about how that connected to Israel's actions, or what else China would have to do to be worthy of condemnation.

Click to expand...

But the whole point of Siege's post was to compare and connect the totality of Israel's overall cumulative actions over past decades and the way in which some groups/media use the past atrocities that the Jewish people have experienced at the hands of foreign powers to justify Israel's cumulative actions.
Siege's comparisons with China is thus a hypothetical equivalent where China conducts proportionately equivalent actions over a similar extent and time period with justification for the past atrocities that the Chinese people have experienced at the hands of foreign powers, and how such a hypothetical of course would never be accepted or entertained by the groups/media that in the real world justify Israel's actions.

So I am confused as to why you chose to ask about such a specific equivalent hypothetical scenario (of China bombarding Japanese infrastructure) which only takes an element of the total extent of Israel's cumulative actions over past decades, as a "gotcha"?

Because by doing so you have created a false equivalence, and instead to truly challenge Siege's statement, you'd need a hypothetical situation that is somewhat more equal to reality, which as azncyniq wrote in the other thread, is a much more longer duration, generational series of policies and actions which he (not inaccurately described) as: "for your analogy to make sense, China would have to turn Japan into an open-air prison and murder Japanese children year after year for 70 years. I don't see that happening in our lifetimes."

Why are chinese people today so cold towards Israel? maybe actively participating in slander and china bashing might have something to do with it


predictably, Israeli supporters are interpreting the Chinese lack of support of Israel as antisemitism


apparently, these Zionist supremacists are upset that Chinese aren’t acknowledging their place as livestock and servants to Gods Chosen People.

Lest we forget.

Blitzo said:

But the whole point of Siege's post was to compare and connect the totality of Israel's overall cumulative actions over past decades and the way in which some groups/media use the past atrocities that the Jewish people have experienced at the hands of foreign powers to justify Israel's cumulative actions.
Siege's comparisons with China is thus a hypothetical equivalent where China conducts proportionately equivalent actions over a similar extent and time period with justification for the past atrocities that the Chinese people have experienced at the hands of foreign powers, and how such a hypothetical of course would never be accepted or entertained by the groups/media that in the real world justify Israel's actions.

So I am confused as to why you chose to ask about such a specific equivalent hypothetical scenario (of China bombarding Japanese infrastructure) which only takes an element of the total extent of Israel's cumulative actions over past decades, as a "gotcha"?

Because by doing so you have created a false equivalence, and instead to truly challenge Siege's statement, you'd need a hypothetical situation that is somewhat more equal to reality, which as azncyniq wrote in the other thread, is a much more longer duration, generational series of policies and actions which he (not inaccurately described) as: "for your analogy to make sense, China would have to turn Japan into an open-air prison and murder Japanese children year after year for 70 years. I don't see that happening in our lifetimes."

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You're right that I should have considered seige's statement in the context of the whole conflict and not just the latest flare-up, that is my fault.

What I was trying to do was express a general frustration with what I see as pretty extreme hypocrisy on this forum when it comes to violence against civilians. (Not to mention no small amount of antisemitism since Oct 7, see the comment before last). I remember when Russia invaded Ukraine. I was a lurker at the time. There was an enormous sense of glee on this forum for the destruction that followed, and consistent denial of the crimes that Russia committed against Ukrainian civilians, either in its indiscriminate bombing practices or in more on-the-ground massacres and war-crimes in Bukha and elsewhere. They accused Ukraine of bombing its own people and blaming it on Russia. Time has since passed and such denial has become rare, but what replaced it was an indifference to the human cost and general sense that whatever Russia was doing was worth it to protect itself, regardless of the civilian suffering it wrought.

This is repeated in discussions on options for PLA strike strategies in westpac. It is not uncommon to see advocacy for intensive bombardment of dual-use infrastructure in Japan and even Taiwan; especially Taiwan. This includes things like electric grides, telecom networks, food stockpiles, and water distribution. Are the commentators here ignorant as to what this would mean for civilians in Taiwan? Would they be willing to personally endure the hell that followed for the sake of reunification? They are either unaware of simply indifferent.

That brings us to the most recent spate of conflict in Israel. This was sparked when Hamas operatives snuck across the boarder and massacred about 1200 civilians in their homes and in a music festival. Women were on video being raped and murdered. Entire families including children were killed, and hundreds were captured. Again, the reaction here was one of general glee. People called the victims settlers and mocked their suffering, calling for their mass murder or expulsion "back to Europe", regardless of the fact that 60% of them descended from MENA Jews fleeing ethnic cleansing, and refuse to even acknowledge this undisputed historical fact. Then the predictably terrible retaliation follows in Gaza, and there is an outpouring of sympathy, suddenly human life matters and individuals should not be punished for the actions of their forefathers. Many of the people displaying this sympathy are ones who mocked or otherwise dismissed the suffering of dead Ukrainian and Israeli civilians.

And nobody calls out or even acknowledges this. It's the same behavior Americans display and are hated for; only caring about life when it benefits them geopolitically, and showing a total disregard for it otherwise. And the worst part is that Israel/Palestine does not even implicate China in any meaningful way, it just wants to buy oil from Arab countries and agrotech from Israel, it has no political stake in this. But many forum-goers make up a stake to accommodate their own biases.

Boltzmann said:

I understand this, but my point was that I specifically asked whether seige believed there would be a moral outcry here if China bombarded Japanese infrastructure, and several people immediately answered yes, with no qualifier about how that connected to Israel's actions, or what else China would additionally have to do to be worthy of condemnation.

Click to expand...

The real question is why Russia and Putin is charged with war crimes but not Israel. If attacking civilian infrastructure isn't a war crime, then Palestinians could also justify their terrorist attacks on Israel as resistant and struggle for independent. Isn't the founding of Israel full of terrorist attacks against anyone or any country that stands in Jews' way to form a State. If rules are applied arbitrarily, then why should the rest of the world cares about what the Western powers have to say.

If the US, the West and Israel have no respect of rules and only arbitrarily applied them when it is their interests to do so. If From their perspective, the West and its allies are always good and anyone stands in their way and rules are pure evil, why should anyone cares. At the end of the day, it is the rule of jungle and the power is Might.

To answer your question, if rules don't apply to the West and Israel, then why should China be condemned. If a moral outcry is only applied to Russia and Israel is giving a free pass. Why should Anyone cares?

US and the West have lost their moral high ground and it doesn't matter how MSM tried to twist and sugarcoat the situation.

Chevalier said:

Why are chinese people today so cold towards Israel? maybe actively participating in slander and china bashing might have something to do with it

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predictably, Israeli supporters are interpreting the Chinese lack of support of Israel as antisemitism

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apparently, these Zionist supremacists are upset that Chinese aren’t acknowledging their place as livestock and servants to Gods Chosen People.

Click to expand...

As long as Israel is supporting terrorism against China, I don't see why they're deserving of even a little bit of pity.

By supporting terrorism against us, they are showing that their population would love nothing better than to see us unable to defend ourselves and our homes from terrorism. In that case, why should Chinese want to preserve Israelis, a people that literally wishes deathly harm to us?

If Israel is sincere about not being China's enemy, they should immediately revoke and apologize over past statements whitewashing terrorism. Withdraw signatures of pro-jihadist statements.

I might come off as anti Israeli here, but I'm really not. I'm only against peoples that wish China harm, and against those, I'm a believer of preemptive strike and zero sum actions.

In my experience, Jewish people and Chinese people share surprisingly many common points. These two peoples need not be enemies. China did nothing to provoke the zionists. And if the zionists want to go so far as to provoke China into action, they will not like the outcome.

As far as I'm concerned, the zionists are not significantly worse than the mullahs or the sheiks. They all can be worked with. But that requires them not wishing terrorism and death upon us.

Boltzmann said:

You're right that I should have considered seige's statement in the context of the whole conflict and not just the latest flare-up, that is my fault.

What I was trying to do was express a general frustration with what I see as pretty extreme hypocrisy on this forum when it comes to violence against civilians. (Not to mention no small amount of antisemitism since Oct 7, see the comment before last). I remember when Russia invaded Ukraine. I was a lurker at the time. There was an enormous sense of glee on this forum for the destruction that followed, and consistent denial of the crimes that Russia committed against Ukrainian civilians, either in its indiscriminate bombing practices or in more on-the-ground massacres and war-crimes in Bukha and elsewhere. They accused Ukraine of bombing its own people and blaming it on Russia. Time has since passed and such denial has become rare, but what replaced it was an indifference to the human cost and general sense that whatever Russia was doing was worth it to protect itself, regardless of the civilian suffering it wrought.

This is repeated in discussions on options for PLA strike strategies in westpac. It is not uncommon to see advocacy for intensive bombardment of dual-use infrastructure in Japan and even Taiwan; especially Taiwan. This includes things like electric grides, telecom networks, food stockpiles, and water distribution. Are the commentators here ignorant as to what this would mean for civilians in Taiwan? Would they be willing to personally endure the hell that followed for the sake of reunification? They are either unaware of simply indifferent.

That brings us to the most recent spate of conflict in Israel. This was sparked when Hamas operatives snuck across the boarder and massacred about 1200 civilians in their homes and in a music festival. Women were on video being raped and murdered. Entire families including children were killed, and hundreds were captured. Again, the reaction here was one of general glee. People called the victims settlers and mocked their suffering, calling for their mass murder or expulsion, regardless of the fact that 60% of them descended from MENA Jews fleeing ethnic cleansing, and refuse to even acknowledge this undisputed historical fact. Then the predictably terrible retaliation follows in Gaza, and there is an outpouring of sympathy, suddenly human life matters and individuals should not be punished for the actions of their forefathers. Many of the people displaying this sympathy are ones who mocked or otherwise dismissed the suffering of dead Ukrainian and Israeli civilians.

And nobody calls out or even acknowledges this. It's the same behavior Americans display and are hated for; only caring about life when it benefits them geopolitically, and showing a total disregard for it otherwise. And the worst part is that Israel/Palestine does not even implicate China in any meaningful way, it just wants to buy oil from Arab countries and agrotech from Israel, it has no political stake in this. But many forum-goers make up a stake to accommodate their own biases.

Click to expand...

With all that now you know how it feels to be a suppressed Palestinians for over 70 years with no Western media to favor their narrative. Don't pretend that these members from SDF are blind and ignorant to the matters of geopolitics of the world. Zionist Jews just wants everybody in the world to follow ONLY their feelings and views because "God" says so. That way they can purposefully say that the land of Palestine has always belongs to them even though it was colonized by the British and GIVEN to the Jews after WW2 out sympathy of the holocaust.

Boltzmann said:

You're right that I should have considered seige's statement in the context of the whole conflict and not just the latest flare-up, that is my fault.

What I was trying to do was express a general frustration with what I see as pretty extreme hypocrisy on this forum when it comes to violence against civilians. (Not to mention no small amount of antisemitism since Oct 7, see the comment before last). I remember when Russia invaded Ukraine. I was a lurker at the time. There was an enormous sense of glee on this forum for the destruction that followed, and consistent denial of the crimes that Russia committed against Ukrainian civilians, either in its indiscriminate bombing practices or in more on-the-ground massacres and war-crimes in Bukha and elsewhere. They accused Ukraine of bombing its own people and blaming it on Russia. Time has since passed and such denial has become rare, but what replaced it was an indifference to the human cost and general sense that whatever Russia was doing was worth it to protect itself, regardless of the civilian suffering it wrought.

This is repeated in discussions on options for PLA strike strategies in westpac. It is not uncommon to see advocacy for intensive bombardment of dual-use infrastructure in Japan and even Taiwan; especially Taiwan. This includes things like electric grides, telecom networks, food stockpiles, and water distribution. Are the commentators here ignorant as to what this would mean for civilians in Taiwan? Would they be willing to personally endure the hell that followed for the sake of reunification? They are either unaware of simply indifferent.

That brings us to the most recent spate of conflict in Israel. This was sparked when Hamas operatives snuck across the boarder and massacred about 1200 civilians in their homes and in a music festival. Women were on video being raped and murdered. Entire families including children were killed, and hundreds were captured. Again, the reaction here was one of general glee. People called the victims settlers and mocked their suffering, calling for their mass murder or expulsion, regardless of the fact that 60% of them descended from MENA Jews fleeing ethnic cleansing, and refuse to even acknowledge this undisputed historical fact. Then the predictably terrible retaliation follows in Gaza, and there is an outpouring of sympathy, suddenly human life matters and individuals should not be punished for the actions of their forefathers. Many of the people displaying this sympathy are ones who mocked or otherwise dismissed the suffering of dead Ukrainian and Israeli civilians.

And nobody calls out or even acknowledges this. It's the same behavior Americans display and are hated for; only caring about life when it benefits them geopolitically, and showing a total disregard for it otherwise. And the worst part is that Israel/Palestine does not even implicate China in any meaningful way, it just wants to buy oil from Arab countries and agrotech from Israel, it has no political stake in this. But many forum-goers make up a stake to accommodate their own biases.

Click to expand...

I have also observed hypocrisy on the forum and I do not like that either, however choosing to quote Siege's post to do so also demonstrated your underlying biases as well. That is fine -- everyone has their own biases and preconceptions, but in this specific case you really should have read the room a little bit better.
It is also a bit surprising that when Siege was criticizing the sort of widespread narratives in the western world for their inconsistent application of "defending XYZ due to past ABC tragedy inflicted upon them" by saying that they would never do so for China, you choose to focus on observed hypocrisy on this forum instead, considering those views are absolutely not the majority in the western world or the "liberal" crowd who possess the institutional media sympathy and influential power.


As for civilian casualties (in both lives and/or infrastructure/facilities) overall in conflict -- that is of course always a tragedy, regardless of the victim and perpetrator.
The unique difference in what Palestine (Gaza) is experiencing currently versus a massive array of other conflicts in the world that have either occurred, or is occurring, or even hypothetical conflicts (such as a Taiwan contingency as you raised), is ultimately the cumulative decades of dispossession, displacement, degradation and destruction (including by military force) that Palestinians in Gaza have experienced prior to the bombardment they are experiencing now, and the massive overwhelming inequality of military force and sophistication between the two sides in their decades-long conflict.

So again, if you want to provide a hypothetical scenario to demonstrate case-equivalent hypocrisy, then you'd need something a bit more comprehensive than "conventional conflict that results in civilian infrastructure being destroyed and civilian casualties"... which by the way I personally would also consider as very much something that should be avoided, but is also vastly different to the Israel-Gaza (Palestine) situation in preceding duration and scale of events.